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Hobojebus

40K no longer the top dog.

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It's not impossible, you just need to put limits on the distance range weapons are effective in order to force engagement.  It's not "realistic" (whatever that means in a world of psychic fungus goons) but it makes for a good game.  In general, limiting shooting improves gameplay in a miniatures game, period, because melee and shorter ranges demand models move more.  There's something to be said for the old Musket lines, but that kind of static combat may as well be abstracted, because its not terribly reliant on the position of individual figures on the board.

 

Range is really only an interesting mechanic when the game fights against its natural power.  It's better suited to smaller figure counts where you can have more complicated terrain interactions and denser environments.  That's part of the reason Space Hulk has always been popular after all.  The entire game is about an environment that makes guns as ineffective as possible.

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Yeah I remember the days when terminators laughed off fire and rolled 2D6.

I still lost some to gretchen. Lol.

The good old days!

Dude shokatack gunz teleporting gretchin into your armour is no joke.

 

Okay it's a really good one aslong as it's not your armour they get into.

Shok attack guns!

I had forgotten about them!

Even though the insta kill was a roll of 6, it seemed to come up all the time.

It's still the one death to be inflicted on my lads that still makes me wince to think of it.

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It's not impossible, you just need to put limits on the distance range weapons are effective in order to force engagement.  In general, limiting shooting improves gameplay in a miniatures game, period, because melee and shorter ranges demand models move more.

Yes and no. All a game with more shooting needs is more cover, which a lot of tabletop players seem to treat as an afterthought. And rules that make cover properly usable. 3rd Edition again was really bad at this, as it transformed cover from this thing that made it harder to hit models, and turned it into something where it made it harder to damage them. Except it didn't in a lot of cases, as a Space Marine 3+, gained only a marginal benefit from being in cover (most weapons couldn't defeat his armor, and cover was irrelevant in those cases). On the flip side, a Guardsman, whose armor was automatically defeated by a Space Marine's bolter, was safer in cover. This, combined with the severe penalties to range when models moved (50% or more in an already artificially short-ranged system), created the static "Gunline" Tau and IGuard armies doing the exact opposite of what you suggested. It caused those armies to give up moving at all a lot of the time, because movement disproportionately penalized them. In a Gunline vs Close Combat matchup, one side moves as much as possible, and the other side tries to make themselves as hard to reach as possible.

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It's not impossible, you just need to put limits on the distance range weapons are effective in order to force engagement.  In general, limiting shooting improves gameplay in a miniatures game, period, because melee and shorter ranges demand models move more.

Yes and no. All a game with more shooting needs is more cover, which a lot of tabletop players seem to treat as an afterthought. And rules that make cover properly usable. 3rd Edition again was really bad at this, as it transformed cover from this thing that made it harder to hit models, and turned it into something where it made it harder to damage them. Except it didn't in a lot of cases, as a Space Marine 3+, gained only a marginal benefit from being in cover (most weapons couldn't defeat his armor, and cover was irrelevant in those cases). On the flip side, a Guardsman, whose armor was automatically defeated by a Space Marine's bolter, was safer in cover. This, combined with the severe penalties to range when models moved (50% or more in an already artificially short-ranged system), created the static "Gunline" Tau and IGuard armies doing the exact opposite of what you suggested. It caused those armies to give up moving at all a lot of the time, because movement disproportionately penalized them. In a Gunline vs Close Combat matchup, one side moves as much as possible, and the other side tries to make themselves as hard to reach as possible.

 

 

That still hasn't changed 4 edition later, except now AP3 or better and Ignores Cover are both handed out like candy (in certain armies anyway) so that one one gets any saves, unless you have an invulnerable or Feel No Pain.

 

Even while I was playing 40k, I got more enjoyment out of it just painting than I typically did playing. All through the chunk of 5th edition I played, generic Space Marines were considered pretty meh, and though since then they've generally been pretty good, it's mostly through units I don't like(bikes and centurions, etc.); stompy dreadnoughts, assault marines and even Terminators are generally crap. So I don't play anymore. Maybe GW will get a clue at some point when it comes to writing an actual game(stuff like Space Hulk and Betrayal at Calth are mostly enjoyable little systems so it's not outside their grasp), but in the meantime, I still buy the occasional box to paint up. 

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That still hasn't changed 4 edition later, except now AP3 or better and Ignores Cover are both handed out like candy (in certain armies anyway) so that one one gets any saves, unless you have an invulnerable or Feel No Pain.

 

Even while I was playing 40k, I got more enjoyment out of it just painting than I typically did playing. All through the chunk of 5th edition I played, generic Space Marines were considered pretty meh, and though since then they've generally been pretty good, it's mostly through units I don't like(bikes and centurions, etc.); stompy dreadnoughts, assault marines and even Terminators are generally crap. So I don't play anymore. Maybe GW will get a clue at some point when it comes to writing an actual game(stuff like Space Hulk and Betrayal at Calth are mostly enjoyable little systems so it's not outside their grasp), but in the meantime, I still buy the occasional box to paint up.

I mostly just cut Space Marines into small pieces and glue them back together. I really enjoy converting. Despite the game's significant flaws, the models are top notch. The only playing I've done has been Space Hulk, Mordheim, Necromunda, and occasionally playing the boxed set campaigns if one of my buddies buys them. Since neither of us really cares about winning, any point imbalance in the boxed sets is somewhat irrelevant. Aside from magnets there's not much you can do with most of the ships I use in X-Wing (I don't own any of the YT freighters), without substantially altering them from what makes them Star Wars in the first place. So X-Wing I play for the game, rather than the models, whereas my interest in 40K is almost entirely in the models rather than the game.

 

As far as 40K not changing, that's because the current version of the game is still built on the core mechanics introduced in 3rd Edition. You can really just call it Edition 3.7 or something. Games Workshop has been trying to fix the same broken mechanics for 15 years, not realizing what the game needed was another complete overhaul. The problem is that the necessary overhaul would invalidate a lot of collections. And while they might have done that with Age of Sigmar recently, 40K is what keeps the lights on at GW. They can't risk damaging that brand. So, like I said a page or so back, I think the game is never going to recover. There are people who like it the way it is, but they seem to be shrinking in numbers all the time. But this is a massive IP. GW isn't going away any time soon.

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I hope I don't upset anyone by asking about this, but are Necrons any good in 40K anymore? I played the game a long time ago and had a cool force painted up, but then I went back to school, people changed, etc. (50 Necron warriors, 6 Destroyers, 10 Scarab Swarms and a Necron Lord). It was fun back then and the models turned out really nice. I didn't buy any big things like the monolith though.

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I quit 40K when 4th edition came out, and Fantasy shortly after 7th edition came out.

I gladly await the day when GW goes bust, and all the wonderful fluff they have for their universes goes to a company that isn't hell bent on destroying itself in an attempt to copyright everything/squeeze every last penny out of its players at all costs.

Yeah you stick it to that evil corporation, let's hope they go bust and a load of people lose their livelihoods and associated jobs in Nottingham and around the world plus all the fans who actually who enjoy the game ad love the models.

I play X wing and 40k( since 1989) different games, love both. X wing is top at the moment doesn't surprise me but will X wing be around as long as 40k?

Edited by Ashley

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I play X wing and 40k( since 1989) different games, love both. X wing is top at the moment doesn't surprise me but will X wing be around as long as 40k?

 

 

I don't see why it cant games workshop lifted elements of star wars when they were writing the 40k stuff its also backed up by the mouse house that pretty much wants to make sure were buying starwars stuff for the rest of our natural lives.

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I quit 40K when 4th edition came out, and Fantasy shortly after 7th edition came out.

I gladly await the day when GW goes bust, and all the wonderful fluff they have for their universes goes to a company that isn't hell bent on destroying itself in an attempt to copyright everything/squeeze every last penny out of its players at all costs.

Yeah you stick it to that evil corporation, let's hope they go bust and a load of people lose their livelihoods and associated jobs in Nottingham and around the world plus all the fans who actually who enjoy the game ad love the models.

I play X wing and 40k( since 1989) different games, love both. X wing is top at the moment doesn't surprise me but will X wing be around as long as 40k?

Plenty of other games systems who could use those employees - just look at the ex-GWers at Mantic for example.

GW have been slashing jobs within their own company for years, not to mention their cynical tactics to put independent shop owners out of business.

So yeah, I can't wait for them to go out if business - or at least get back to when they weren't evil.

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My favorite reaction to AoS was:

 

"This is not a game by any definition I'm comfortable with"

 

My favorite reaction was this:

 warhammerburning.png

 

It really sais it all doesn't it? I mean how bad does a game have to be that you would voluntarily burn down your entire collection? Not give them to your buddy. Not sell them on E-bay. Not throw them away. No, he made the aditional effort to BURN THEM.

WTF!? How wussy does a fan base have to be too get so butt hurt as to throw a tantrum in which they literally set their toys on fire just because change happens? Puberty must have been so hard for them. If they ever got to be that grown up.

If anything that reaction shows how juvenile/assanine the fans were and that they deserve to have their toys taken away anyway.

I've been in a mood today. Does it show? Sorry not sorry.

Well, to be honest, first of all I see this as a stunt for views more than anything else. An expensive one, but a stunt nonetheless.

All that being said, the sentiment (if not the actions) are 100% relatable. WFB was dying a long, slow death for a long time. Players dropped the game, venues dropped support, and finally the kicker is that the entire universe and system was shredded. AoS is not anything that closely resembles the old game, which means that it isn't like there will ever be a new influx of new players to WFB. Couple that with the fact that a lot of older armies don't mesh with the scale or visual dynamic of the new game at all, and it's clearly frustrating. You can't even buy new models to use with the old rules thanks to changing the bases that they come packaged with. You could perhaps buy bases online, but this is a move almost guaranteed to drive fans away.

Look at it this way. In the first edition of the game of thrones LCG, if you started back in the beginning (14 years ago), and bought one core and one of every deluxe expansion and card pack at MSRP, you would have paid around $1300 in USD. Then FFG came along and announced a second edition, invalidating all of the old cards. You can still play games of the old edition, but new players (especially anyone sucked in through the show) will play the new game. It stings. Now in this scenario you spent that money on EVERY SINGLE CARD AVAILABLE. Imagine if you spent that money on 1/10 of the available pool of cards, and every couple years a new edition either nerfs/buffs some cards so badly you need to adjust, or in some cases totally invalidates and removes a card from the game, necessitating that you buy another card for $60 just to fill the gap in your deck? Oh, and the FAQ and rules updates aren't free, they cost $30-$60 and you have to buy one for every type of deck. And they get updated on a totally nonsensical schedule.

Now you are seeing the frustration that caused a lot of formerly die hard GW fans to just throw in the towel. I personally have thought about getting back in. I stay up on 40k editions, I check out codices, I even went so far as to buy some dark angels and considered some skitarii and necrons. But then I look at the grey plastic in a box, remember that I have a job, school and a wife, and I just don't have the bandwidth or the disposable income to get back into that. So then I buy my plastic spaceships, spend 1/4 of the time playing a game, and have an absolute blast.

Am I going to torch my space marines? No. Do I understand what drove someone to it? Hell yes.

 

That guy burned his army when Age of Sigmar was announced, before people even knew the full scope of it.

 

That army had a Nagash in it, so it's not like he was a huge loss to the Fantasy community. Bloody OP Lore of Undeath son of ....

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I hope I don't upset anyone by asking about this, but are Necrons any good in 40K anymore? I played the game a long time ago and had a cool force painted up, but then I went back to school, people changed, etc. (50 Necron warriors, 6 Destroyers, 10 Scarab Swarms and a Necron Lord). It was fun back then and the models turned out really nice. I didn't buy any big things like the monolith though.

Necrons are one of the top armies in the game right now because of how difficult it is to kill the,  If they are run in a Decurion detachment they get a 4+ reanimate roll that I believe they can reroll.

 

The armies are actually becoming more balanced as each force gets an updated codex.  As weird as it sounds, it is balanced when everyone is ridiculously overpowered.

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The armies are actually becoming more balanced as each force gets an updated codex.  As weird as it sounds, it is balanced when everyone is ridiculously overpowered.

...but are they becoming more fun to play?

I play Space Marines and Eldar, so I do pretty well at competitive events. But what I've found is that, more and more, you have to resort to degenerate tactics to win. You lose badly if you're not spamming free drop pods or razorbacks using a Gladius Strike Force, or using an insane Centstar with Librarius Conclave support, or spamming grav bikes or some other such nonsense. Occasionally someone will create a clever new army list and win tournaments, but that's a rarity.

In casual play... there is crazy disparity in list strength, even among the current crop of codexes. Moreso than X-Wing, it's easy for even a non-novice player to unknowingly put together a totally garbage army list.

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The armies are actually becoming more balanced as each force gets an updated codex.  As weird as it sounds, it is balanced when everyone is ridiculously overpowered.

...but are they becoming more fun to play?

I play Space Marines and Eldar, so I do pretty well at competitive events. But what I've found is that, more and more, you have to resort to degenerate tactics to win. You lose badly if you're not spamming free drop pods or razorbacks using a Gladius Strike Force, or using an insane Centstar with Librarius Conclave support, or spamming grav bikes or some other such nonsense. Occasionally someone will create a clever new army list and win tournaments, but that's a rarity.

In casual play... there is crazy disparity in list strength, even among the current crop of codexes. Moreso than X-Wing, it's easy for even a non-novice player to unknowingly put together a totally garbage army list.

 

Pssst

wanna buy some more "free" droppods?

No?

Maybe you want our new_box_of_jetbikes? How about 8 of them?

And an Eva...

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It seems the rules are fun. I like how accuracy and how much damage you do are separated. I also like the concept of, "LET'S ROCK!!!" *throws wad of 50 dice at something*

So couldn't one just get a rule book and play with Plastic Army men or something and save hundreds or thousands of dollars? Perhaps make a theme and go with a stereotypical 50's Robot toy for big creatures.

"My 50 binocular guys all throw 50 binoculars at that tank."

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It seems the rules are fun. I like how accuracy and how much damage you do are separated.

Except the way Accuracy is implemented fails completely. A genetically enhanced super soldier (space marine, bs4) has:

- The same chance to hit a super nimble and unnaturally agile alien (like an Eldar) as he has a building sized block of armor (titan)

- He will miss them both 1/3 of the time

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