A few force power questions

[Ahrimon 1,211]

I don't have much experience with F&D so I have a couple of questions. 

 

1.  Does activating protect on your turn count as your action?  If so, does anyone find that it makes the power a bit weak since all you can do is sit there and shield yourself?

 

2.  What power would you use to toss several opponents back?  I'd like to recreate how the characters in the movies and cartoons shove back groups of enemies.

 

3.  Is there a power I could use to throw a telekinetic blast?  Similar to what you see in the TOR MMO.  I've always liked the scene in the trailer where the Jedi throws a ball of force at the sith warrior.

 

If and or when I get to play a F&D game, I'd kind of like to mimic Nick from the movie Push.  Focusing more on telekinetic type powers.

 

Thanks

[DiegoOnasi 43]

I don't have much experience with F&D so I have a couple of questions. 

 

1.  Does activating protect on your turn count as your action?  If so, does anyone find that it makes the power a bit weak since all you can do is sit there and shield yourself?

 

2.  What power would you use to toss several opponents back?  I'd like to recreate how the characters in the movies and cartoons shove back groups of enemies.

 

3.  Is there a power I could use to throw a telekinetic blast?  Similar to what you see in the TOR MMO.  I've always liked the scene in the trailer where the Jedi throws a ball of force at the sith warrior.

 

If and or when I get to play a F&D game, I'd kind of like to mimic Nick from the movie Push.  Focusing more on telekinetic type powers.

 

Thanks

 

1. Activating any force power counts as action unless the power or upgrade specifically states otherwise. If you have the Age Of Rebellion GM screen there is a table on there that gives you an idea of what is an action or what is a maneuver.

 

2. There are a couple of ways you could do it, but probably the most custom built way of doing it would be using bind with the Control: Move and a couple of magnitude upgrades.

 

3. Move is probably the power to use for this. 

 

Have a look at Force and Destiny. It covers all the basics you need to know when playing a force wielding character.

[Blackbird888 4,110]

1. All Force powers are actions, unless it says other wise. Haven't seen it in play yet, but the power reads pretty good. The defense is a situational defense, and you can protect allies.

Move, triggering Magnitude, Strength, Range and probably the hurl Control.

Move again. The powers are left as open to interpretation as they can be, so to get the effect just narrate the power in that manner.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

Bind Basic Power: 

 

The Force user restrains an enemy, preventing the target from acting.

The user may spend Force Points to immobilize a target within short range until the end of the user’s next turn. If the user used any Dark Poiints to generate Force Points, the target also suffers 1 wound per Force Point spent on the check (ignoring soak).

 

Control Upgrade:

 

Spend Force Point to move the target one range band closer or farther away

 

 

Use this with range and magnitude upgrades and you effectively have Force Push.

 

 

You could use Force Move, however Move is more controlled... Bind works better if you want a short burst.

[Blackbird888 4,110]

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/?p=1261704

[DiegoOnasi 43]

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/?p=1261704

 

I think that was a lame response from Sam to be honest... no offense Sam.

 

If there is a power that specifically has the effect of pushing a target back and restraining that target or in this case knocking it prone which would have the same effect, then that is the power I would use first, in this case that's Bind. The dark side equivalent to Force Push would be Choak which is also covered by Bind.

 

Move has no dark side application and the only real combat advantage would be the Control upgrade: The Force user can hurl objects to damage targets, by making a ranged combat check combined with a Move power check, dealing damage equal to 10 times silhouette.

 

 

However with that said, I did say originally you could use either. But in my opinion as a GM if a player wanted to make a Force Push power, I would make him use Bind. If he didn't possess the Bind power I might be willing to allow him to use Move instead depending on the circumstances.

[Decorus 672]

1, Its an action unless there is an upgrade which reduces it to a maneuver or incidental or you have the talent which lets you use it as a maneuver or the Niman I missed with my light saber so now I can pimp slap you with move.

 

2. Its move being applied to a minion group. Bind just isn't a good choice for force slam.

 

3. Either Move or Unleash since Unleash is fairly generic in what kind of damage it does.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

 

 

2. Its move being applied to a minion group. Bind just isn't a good choice for force slam.

 

 

 

Considering the argument I've just presented if you are going to make that kind of statement you should really back it up with something rather than just saying it isn't a good choice.

[Decorus 672]

You made an arguement?

Sorry I just figured everyone would look at what you said then look at bind and realize you really didn't have much of an arguement there.

 

1. Bind requires more xp to move a single person

2. Bind requires how many force pips to do it?

Lets count

 

1 to activate

2 for additional targets

1 for range

1 for each range band you move the target

 

So 5 pips to move 2 targets to short range 6 pips to medium 7 pips to long 8 pips to extreme.

 

Now Move is

1 to activate

1 for additional targets

1 for range

1 for size

 

So Move does more damage is cheaper to buy up does not require you to spend a pip per range band you toss them.

 

I'm still confused on how you claim bind is better.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

You made an arguement?

Sorry I just figured everyone would look at what you said then look at bind and realize you really didn't have much of an arguement there.

 

1. Bind requires more xp to move a single person

2. Bind requires how many force pips to do it?

Lets count

 

1 to activate

2 for additional targets

1 for range

1 for each range band you move the target

 

So 5 pips to move 2 targets to short range 6 pips to medium 7 pips to long 8 pips to extreme.

 

Now Move is

1 to activate

1 for additional targets

1 for range

1 for size

 

So Move does more damage is cheaper to buy up does not require you to spend a pip per range band you toss them.

 

I'm still confused on how you claim bind is better.

 

Well thats better, at least I'm getting a spirited debate out of you 

 

Ok for starters you have seriously miscalculated the number of force points it takes to use Bind for the purposes of pushing a character over.

 

1 FP to activate basic power

1 FP to increase Range (it's equal to range upgrades purchased so regardless of how many range bands you want to increase its still only 1 FP)

1 FP for Control Move upgrade.

 

The Bind basic power immobilizes the target, then with the control strain upgrade you can inflict strain damage. Remember that minions and Rivals dont suffer strain so this is applied to their wound points.

 

You can then commit Force Dice at no extra FP cost to sustain the power. Keeping the target locked up as long as you need.

 

All of the above is assuming you are playing nice. If your willing to spend those dark side points then you can inflict a lot more damage.

 

 

Now lets look at Move. The basic power lets you move an object with a silhouette of 0 upon the expenditure of 1 FP.

 

You can use hurl to throw object as your target. This requires an opposed check and doesn't cost FP but this isn't really the same effect as force push now is it?

 

Increase Range and Increase silhouette size costs 2 FP... so sure you can move an enemy around but you cant really do any damage with it.

 

By the time you get to Control Manipulate which is about the same XP cost as Mastery for Bind you could use the force to tickle your opponents, or gently stroke their hair but you still cant do any damage.

 

 

That is why I personally as the GM would insist that someone wanting to do any kind of damage with a force push move should use Bind.

[Blackbird888 4,110]

Both powers are telekinetic. Bind is described multiple times as the user grabbing the target with the Force - the damage done through Bind is the dark side, and the user is crushing them to death. Also, the control upgrade only allows the user to move the target a single range band, and does not harm them in any other way, nor does it knock them prone. Once the power ends, the target is only standing in a different place from where they were.

 

Move is simply knocking a target away, indiscriminately. Which is exactly what the OP described as wanting to do.

 

And whether or not you liked or disliked Mr. Stewart's answer on the subject is irrelevant. He's with the developers, and you're not. If they intended for Push/Pull to be under the purview of Move, then it is.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

And whether or not you liked or disliked Mr. Stewart's answer on the subject is irrelevant. He's with the developers, and you're not. If they intended for Push/Pull to be under the purview of Move, then it is.

Pretty much this.

 

From the outset of the Edge of the Empire Beta, it's been pretty clear the intent was for Move to account for a "Force push" type of effect, especially with the Discipline check counting as a ranged combat check, meaning the PC can spend advantages to knock the target(s) on their butts (I personally only have it cost 2 advantage to do so).

 

This system is geared towards keeping things as simple as possible where possible.  As such, the Move power + Control upgrade to hurl objects = Force push/slam.  If you want to hurl a bigger target or more of them, simply activate Strength and Magnitude upgrades as needed.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

Both powers are telekinetic. Bind is described multiple times as the user grabbing the target with the Force - the damage done through Bind is the dark side, and the user is crushing them to death. Also, the control upgrade only allows the user to move the target a single range band, and does not harm them in any other way, nor does it knock them prone. Once the power ends, the target is only standing in a different place from where they were.

 

Move is simply knocking a target away, indiscriminately. Which is exactly what the OP described as wanting to do.

 

And whether or not you liked or disliked Mr. Stewart's answer on the subject is irrelevant. He's with the developers, and you're not. If they intended for Push/Pull to be under the purview of Move, then it is.

 

It's not irrelevant, my complaint with that answer was based on the fact that it seemed to be a quick fob off without giving the question much if any consideration at all.

 

All I wanted to do was generate some debate on the subject to see if any one could put a strong argument across one way or the other. Unfortunately it seems I can only get short pointless replies with no guts at all or personal attacks.

[Decorus 672]

Its been explained to you that

 

1. Bind does not knockdown

2. Bind does no damage

3. Bind is way too expensive to work for that purpose.

 

The fact that you seem to ignore these 3 things means there is no reason to bother trying to debate this with you.

[Daeglan 5,950]

Don't forget Move is a ranged combat check so you can spend 2 advantage(Or is it 3 I forget) to knock your target prone. 

Bind also requires you to be force rating 2 to get it. Obi-wan as a padawan with likely one force rating in phantom menace is tossing minions all over the place. 

[blackyce 29]

1. Protect is pretty good but to make it really worth it you need a lot of force peeps. Remember you can use magnitude upgrades to protect your friends too. Shielding all your group from any number of attacks and giving them free defense is worth an action. If you get a very lucky roll you might be able to use the mastery and reflect some of it back.

If you don't have enough peeps to do this you can still combine the defense you get with improved reflect and parry. With a bit of luck you might get some attacks back and make it worthwhile. A bit like soresu's Defensive Circle but more advantage efficient (Circle is 2 vs Protect 1).

[DiegoOnasi 43]

Its been explained to you that

 

1. Bind does not knockdown

2. Bind does no damage

3. Bind is way too expensive to work for that purpose.

 

The fact that you seem to ignore these 3 things means there is no reason to bother trying to debate this with you.

 

You are right, there is no reason to bother trying to debate this with anyone as yet another "it is because i say so" post followed by a personal attack shows the caliber of people posting on this thread. You can't put a reasonable debate forward so you resort to getting personal.

[Krieger22 2,471]

Don't forget Move is a ranged combat check so you can spend 2 advantage(Or is it 3 I forget) to knock your target prone. 

 

I don't think you can knock someone down with Advantages. It requires them to roll 3 Threat, which won't help you much when attacking them.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

 

Don't forget Move is a ranged combat check so you can spend 2 advantage(Or is it 3 I forget) to knock your target prone. 

 

I don't think you can knock someone down with Advantages. It requires them to roll 3 Threat, which won't help you much when attacking them.

 

 

ummm... maybe,,, its relative. If it's a contested roil would advantages scored against an opponent not be considered the same as threat from their point of view? 

 

Contested roll - roll their dice - roll your dice as opposed to a standard difficulty. Once all the dice have cancelled each other out, would any advantages on your end not be considered the same as if he had scored threat against you?

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

 

Don't forget Move is a ranged combat check so you can spend 2 advantage(Or is it 3 I forget) to knock your target prone. 

 

I don't think you can knock someone down with Advantages. It requires them to roll 3 Threat, which won't help you much when attacking them.

 

Remember that the chart provided is nothing more than suggestions of how Advantage, Triumphs, Threat, and Despairs, with the rules themselves calling out that said chart is not the end-all and be-all of how they can be spent.

 

So a GM is well within their right to allow an attack to knock somebody prone with a certain number of Advantages if they feel it's appropriate to the attack being made.  In the case of a Force push/slam may not have the Knockdown quality per se, but as a GM I have zero problem with letting a PC knock a target prone for only a couple of advantages as it makes perfect narrative sense that a sudden blast of kinetic energy is going to push the target onto their hindquarters very easily.

[Orjo Creld 224]

I thought force activation should be a maneuver. Developers went to far keeping force users from being super heroes, IMO. I'm loving the game while trying to figure it out

[Lathrop 838]

I thought force activation should be a maneuver. Developers went to far keeping force users from being super heroes, IMO. I'm loving the game while trying to figure it out

 

Letting it be just maneuvers (or a maneuvers and actions) by default, would get out of hand pretty quickly since you'd be giving even the weakest/newest force-sensitives the ability to trigger 2 or 3 powers in a round; not to mention it gives them more liberty and willingness to abandon a poor roll and avoid the Destiny point flip/ strain to use dark/light side points since they can just try the roll another few times. It would probably move them into the overpowered side too quickly.

 

As-is, there's options for pulling off powers as maneuvers in conjunction with other powers/checks (Force Assault, Protect/Unleash), and to do it as a one-off per session thing (The Force is My Ally); and in all likelihood, there might be something vaguely along the lines of a longer lasting Force is My Ally as a Signature Ability. I find FFG's approach reasonable and it keeps the ability to more freely use force powers limited and almost entirely for the more dedicated of force users.

[Decorus 672]

 

Its been explained to you that

 

1. Bind does not knockdown

2. Bind does no damage

3. Bind is way too expensive to work for that purpose.

 

The fact that you seem to ignore these 3 things means there is no reason to bother trying to debate this with you.

 

You are right, there is no reason to bother trying to debate this with anyone as yet another "it is because i say so" post followed by a personal attack shows the caliber of people posting on this thread. You can't put a reasonable debate forward so you resort to getting personal.

 

Its not because I say so its what the book says the fact is you either haven't read it or don't understand it seems to be your problem. I'm not attacking you the fact is you have made up your mind and no amount of reasonable conversation will change it.

 

A prime example of Bind's basic power is Kylo Ren freezing people in place so they can't move.

A prime example of Bind at mastery is Darth Vader choking people to death.

 

Move is designed to pick up objects and people and throw them around at high speed once you get hurl.

Bind's primary purpose is to prevent people from moving or taking actions.

 

The fact that you can't see whats obvious in the name of the power is a problem, because its pretty hard to not grasp this based on name alone.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

I thought force activation should be a maneuver. Developers went to far keeping force users from being super heroes, IMO. I'm loving the game while trying to figure it out

As Lathrop noted, letting Force powers be used as maneuvers pushes things too far to the other side of the scale, especially once the PCs start boosting up their Force Ratings past a 1 and it becomes more likely that they will succeed in actually getting results from using their Force powers.

 

Force Rating 1 is "struggling beginner stage" in terms of how capable a PC is at using the Force, and I think the system very accurately reflects that a PC in FaD hasn't had the kind of intensive training that kids raised by the Jedi Order have had, and in many cases have had to "learn on their own" as opposed to be trained by a variety of experts since the time they could reasonably walk and talk.  D20 (Saga Edition especially) had the problem of Force users (Jedi classes especially) being very powerful at 1st level and generally staying in that top tier at the expense of the other PCs if the player didn't willingly reign themselves in and not spam their powers like there was no tomorrow.

 

This system is also predicated upon the notion that PCs will be willing to accept strain/conflict to make use of those dark side pips to fuel their Force powers.  Really, the only major cost to that is the flipping of a Destiny Point; I've seen a few posts from a couple GMs that opted to dispense with the Destiny Point flip as they felt the conflict and strain were cost enough to make use of dark side pips when activating a Force power, and from what I gather it hasn't destroyed their games, so that might be a better option to consider.

[sirfuzzzy 25]

I don't have much experience with F&D so I have a couple of questions. 

 

1.  Does activating protect on your turn count as your action?  If so, does anyone find that it makes the power a bit weak since all you can do is sit there and shield yourself?

 

2.  What power would you use to toss several opponents back?  I'd like to recreate how the characters in the movies and cartoons shove back groups of enemies.

 

3.  Is there a power I could use to throw a telekinetic blast?  Similar to what you see in the TOR MMO.  I've always liked the scene in the trailer where the Jedi throws a ball of force at the sith warrior.

 

If and or when I get to play a F&D game, I'd kind of like to mimic Nick from the movie Push.  Focusing more on telekinetic type powers.

 

Thanks

1. Most force powers count as an action.  It's not too bad 

 

2. I let my players use Move to pick up minions and toss them using the control upgrade. They take damage and deal damage based on their size and/or the situation.  A silhouette 0 creature takes and deals 5 damage being thrown,  a silhouette 1 takes and deals 10,  silhouette 2 takes and deals 20, etc.  It makes the ability feel nice and powerful without making it overpowered when fighting against rivals/nemesis, plus everyone loves force throwing storm troopers at incoming tie fighters.  I don't even let minions make a save against Move..  they are just screwed.  The players feel the power of the force yet retain a healthy respect for blaster fire as a group of 10 storm troopers can still gun them down despite the fact that any one of the players can slaughter multiple troopers in a single round.

 

3. I would use Move for the Telekinetic Push. Same basic mechanic, different GM description.