What are the odds we'll see Lambdas, Gozantis and the like?

[Raging Celt 223]

The idea of pushing a Gozanti deep into enemy territory and dropping TIEs is too delicious to not consider. Or escorting the Emperor's Lamb to a jump point; or working to intercept reb transports, the Ghost, take your pick! So, my question: what are the odds FFG will officially launch an Armada equivalent?

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

I certainly hope so.

 

The question will be what shape those smaller ships will take. Gozantis and GR-75 transports  seem to be much too small for 'small' base ships, but I could see them being useful as sources of squadron commands.

 

What I am really hoping for is a series of ships that also come with new Objective cards, including some that relate to the ships in question. It's of topic, but I could really see special objectives dealing with 418 Immobilizers., but also with Lambda-class shuttles or Sentinel-class landing craft. The latter have certainly been making a regular appearance in SW: Rebels.

[ElSee 463]

GR-75s and Lambdas would certainly make nice objective ships. As for the Gozanti, I've been craving it for a long time. I love them, and the idea of cheap squadron commands is very appealing. Like Mikael said however, unsure about what size they'd be. I would imagine them being on fighter bases, just slightly larger than the Rogues and Villains ships.

So, here's to hoping!

[DScipio 812]

I still hope for this packs:

 

-Transport and shuttles (Lambda Shuttle,Delta-class JV-7 Escort shuttles, Delta-class DX-9 Stromtrooper transport,Gamma-class ATR-6 Assault transport, Beta-class ETR-3 Assault transport)
- Scoutpack (Y-Wing Longprobe, Recon A-Wing, TIE Scout, TIE Vanguard)
- Freighters, minefields and stations wave'
- Scum (Rebels, Pirates and others)- Fighterpack (Z-95, T-Wing, R-41 Starchasers ...)
- Imperial Fighter part II (Xg-1, TIE-Avenger, TIE-Defender, TIE-Phantom, TIE-Heavy Bomber)

 

espaccally for more sceanrios and "missions".

[Vykes 1,927]

Given that I finished up a Gozanti, Sentinel, and Lambda, FFG will almost certainly announce them the moment I add G-75 to that list  

 

Seriously though, I think the chances are pretty good that we'll see them by wave 4 at the latest.  There's a lot of ways they can play it and make a cadre of ships like that fit into the current ruleset while adding those one or two new features that each wave is likely to bring.  While a lot of people seem to have problems fitting those 'huge' X-wing ships into the squadron vs. ship category (including me), I think that depending on how they tweak it, they can go either way.

 

An odd anecdote on the Gozanti size:

It's been a sort of common comparison that a certain model Gozanti is simply too small to be on a small ship stand.  What sorta caught me was wondering how 'weird' small ships look on squadron bases.  Just how far 'off' is 'off' and which ship more so?  So, I checked:

 

 

 It's not the physical size, it's the  'bulk'; even against a Raider that Gozanti feels just a hair too small on that small base, but I can live with it: but both ships feel too big for the squadron bases.

 

That said, I think there's absoutely a case for the G-75 and the Gozanti to be reduced in scale to something maybe 2/3rds that size while still looking okay next to both fighters and small ships.  Thus, it also means they're candidates for another R&V style pack.  So, basically what I'm saying in a long-winded manner is that  am slightly more convinced that we will see a Gozanti as a downscaled squadron-sized miniature if and when it gets an official release.  And that FFG won't put out a near identical Gozanti as that one up there.

 

There's still a lot of ships in that category that remain to be seen.  So I'm inclined to believe that we'll likely get another R&V style pack with 'support ships' and maybe something like the VT-49.  There's just so much potential in these things that I can't imagine FFG would simply sideline them; not when we have an H6 on the table but no Lambda.

[DScipio 812]

There is still the possibility to have a Gonzantio represent a squadron fo 3-4 Gonzantis, perhaps even give them 3 Models on the small base. Such as some did wiht their more fitting 1/7000 Cr90s.

[Raging Celt 223]

I could see it. The models I have seen out there are nice. I agree, though, the moment I pull the trigger on a transport or a lamb FFG will release theres and I will be in a pickle. Sigh. What to do, what to do.

[Vykes 1,927]

Eeeh, that's asking them to skirt their usual things about abstraction and is probably best left to those 1/7000 folks. I've got my own issues with seeing a school of G-75 minnows swimming the same way; it's just really not my cup of tea but I suppose it's possible.  It seems a little odd for individualistic support ships to get a squadron while a group of ships that are more inclined to operate that way (like the CR90's or the like) would be left out. 

 

It would inject a whimsical footnote into the whole affair though: the only solution to making a support vessel work aesthetically as a 'ship' is to make it into the game's first multi-model ship unit despite the solution to support vessels working as a 'squadron' was to impliment the game's first single-model squadron unit.  

 

But that's back down to the whole 'enumeration game' thing again, and I really reaaally don't want to get into that.  It's an easy way to Tarkin a thread. 

[theruleslawyer 165]

I doubt any epic scale ship is going to be done as a squadron. They already have defined them as moving substantially different in xwing. I think they'll keep that their break point for any more cross overs. Epic= small base. Large=squadron.

[cynanbloodbane 3,462]

Im ok with a Small Ship base, just may need to throw on a scatter token to represent higher maneuverability.

[Arowmund 236]

I think the odds of seeing shuttles, the Gozanti, and GR-75's are pretty close to absolute. In fact, I'd wager anything that is in X-Wing will be included in Armada, period.  The devil is less in them being included, and more in the details of said inclusion. 

Gozanti's are "easy." A small, fast, cheap harasser; something that, in my opinion, the Empire needs. The sliding scale makes it easy to bring them in only slightly smaller than the CR90, and if you gave them "escort" on their card, they become an instant PITA (imho). The VT-49 is also pretty much a given, as it exists in X-Wing and would sort of be an actual "faction correct" version of Slave 1, which is already included in Armada (I know, I know, it's totally NOT Slave 1, save the flames, was making a factional role comparison  ).

Shuttles have so many possibilities of abilities and mission goals they pretty much God's gift to the game.

The GR-75 is a bit trickier, but I have no doubt they'll come up with something.

The only aspect of X-Wing I'm not certain we'll see in Armada is the third faction. Sure, we've seen some already, but as Imps or Rebels, not as their own faction. I expect that, if they continue to add S&V, it will continue to follow this trend.

Myself, I'd like to see see a couple more MC-80 style models. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I just can't help feeling that fielding more than one Home 1 is just...wrong? I'll gladly buy a couple more for modding if FFG says modifying the dimensions of models is legal so long as the base is not affected.

And let's not forget, Armada runs the very real risk of over saturation. I used to play EQ years ago, and it got to the point that every x-pack was just the next empty zone. Too many models means we either stop using the ones we have, or the game starts getting bogged down with 2500 point fleets. 

[n815e 106]

I'd be surprised if we saw everything in X-Wing appear in Armada.  How much granularity do squadrons have that we can include every type of craft in X-Wing and have it be unique in Armada?  Not much, really.

[Arowmund 236]

I'd be surprised if we saw everything in X-Wing appear in Armada.  How much granularity do squadrons have that we can include every type of craft in X-Wing and have it be unique in Armada?  Not much, really.

"How much granularity do squadrons have that we can include every type of craft in X-Wing and still have it be unique in X-Wing?"  There, fixed that for you.    

 

With respect, since the different squadrons are actually physically differentiated, they are unique even if they use the exact same stats as what's already there. While I agree that what they do matters to the game (and if you honestly think the varied fighters can't be made unique in those abilities, you shock me with what appears to be a very limited imagination), all one has to do is look at the passion in the posts calling for Imperial CR-90's and/or Neb B's. Because of how they look. Because of some canon from a video game. Or a pamphlet a decade ago.

Sure, the abilities come with the look, but it's the ship they want.

[SMDMadCow 49]

I have a feeling that the GR-75 will end up being able to be built muktiple ways to support either ships or sqaudrons or as a Q-ship with surprise turbo lasers. There's a lot FFG can do with it.

[Arowmund 236]

I have a feeling that the GR-75 will end up being able to be built muktiple ways to support either ships or sqaudrons or as a Q-ship with surprise turbo lasers. There's a lot FFG can do with it.

What about a mine-layer? Something akin to the seismic charges of X-Wing only on a capital ship scale? Just a wild thought I figured I'd toss out there.

[Funk Fu master 825]

Advanced squadrons like the E-Wing and Defender, where the generic squadron will have a defence token.

[Raging Celt 223]

Yeah these are all cool thoughts and ideas. Obviously the transport is great for a Hoth evac. And for the shoot 'em up scene in the radio drama. What about the Ghost? Another ship that makes sense. Or that cruiser Rebels utilize. Can you imagine fielding Phoenix squadron with CR90s? That would be cool! A blood bath but cool!

[xanderf 6,795]

Something that struck me reading the new 'Rebellion' boardgame reviews...

 

Doesn't the Gozanti miniature in that one look almost exactly the right size for how the Gozanti should be in this game, given the 'sliding scale'?

 

Seems super easy for FFG, then, to just print up unusually huge batches of that one - some going to 'Rebellion', some getting painted and going to 'Armada'.  (And yeah, I'd definitely want at least two to a pack)

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

I have a feeling that the GR-75 will end up being able to be built muktiple ways to support either ships or sqaudrons or as a Q-ship with surprise turbo lasers. There's a lot FFG can do with it.

What about a mine-layer? Something akin to the seismic charges of X-Wing only on a capital ship scale? Just a wild thought I figured I'd toss out there.

 

I like that idea very much! I'd like to see more about mines in Armada, especially since there's already a rule for it in the Minefields objective. I'd also like to see a model for it. Has anyone seen anything on Shapeways?

 

Something that struck me reading the new 'Rebellion' boardgame reviews...

 

Doesn't the Gozanti miniature in that one look almost exactly the right size for how the Gozanti should be in this game, given the 'sliding scale'?

 

Seems super easy for FFG, then, to just print up unusually huge batches of that one - some going to 'Rebellion', some getting painted and going to 'Armada'.  (And yeah, I'd definitely want at least two to a pack)

 

It does!

This is directed more at you as a part of the same PDX game-playing community: I've been contemplating buying in on Rebellion. I'm hesitant because I'm not sure people are really interested. We already have a lot of different games going on. As you know, I'm also interested in something narrative and over-arching. I just wonder if:

 

A) Rebellion would be a good platform for that, and

B) If there is community interest.

 

But, if I can satisfy myself to the positive on both of those, I think there'd be room in taking the models from Rebellion and incorporating them for (custom/non-competitive) play in Armada. DiabloAzul already has custom rules (here).

[xanderf 6,795]

A) Rebellion would be a good platform for that, and

 

 

Well...no, near as I can tell.  As the saying goes "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics".  The important part of any war - why the Allies won WW2 and the Axis lost - is really logistics.  And while Armada and X-Wing aren't at the scale that it would come up often (so can be forgiven for overlooking the topic)...Rebellion really, really isn't.  And that it seems absent from the game has me dismissing it as being as a good simulation of the strategic scale of the war in the way that Armada and X-Wing handled the tactical scale.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

A) Rebellion would be a good platform for that, and

 

Well...no, near as I can tell.  As the saying goes "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics".  The important part of any war - why the Allies won WW2 and the Axis lost - is really logistics.  And while Armada and X-Wing aren't at the scale that it would come up often (so can be forgiven for overlooking the topic)...Rebellion really, really isn't.  And that it seems absent from the game has me dismissing it as being as a good simulation of the strategic scale of the war in the way that Armada and X-Wing handled the tactical scale.

 

I understand the levels of war, so what you're saying isn't Greek to me. Yes, Rebellion attempts to simulate the strategic level of war and Armada and X-Wing simulate the tactical level.

 

Because all the games we play should be intriguing, we don't want any game that has implications on other games to determine the outcome of other games. We want no more than just some interesting influences. As far as I'm concerned, that can be limited to the narrative aspects (ie. no implications other than surrounding story).

 

If the operational level of war (logistics by another name) is not modeled, then that can be used to finesse the narrative impacts of one game onto another.

 

But when you say a logistic/operational element is missing, what do you mean? Rebellion does seem to model the use of resources in order to develop new units. It also models moving forces from one galactic region to another. What logistical elements do you find missing?

[xanderf 6,795]

But when you say a logistic/operational element is missing, what do you mean? Rebellion does seem to model the use of resources in order to develop new units. It also models moving forces from one galactic region to another. What logistical elements do you find missing?

 

 

Interestingly, here you hit two problems with the game, at the same time.  In no particular order:

1. Wars don't tend to go on long enough for 'major warship' designs to be built.  Even World War 2, as long and as wide in scope as it was, saw nearly every battleship that fought in the war completed BEFORE the war (the exception were the four American Iowa-class, and the British Vanguard-class that didn't see service - every one saw design start before the war, if not outright construction starting).  Fleet carriers saw production, although they tended to be of a much "simpler" design than the carriers designed before and after the war - and, of course, what flooded the oceans with new production were the hardly-more-than-a-freight "jeep" carriers and, well, freighters.  So having a major game element be construction of ships is...kinda odd.

    

2. The bigger problem, of course, is that the economic cost of constructing new units is such an insignificant part of their use such as to be effectively irrelevant.  Going back to the WW2 example - as hard hit as the economies of Japan and Germany were, they continued production of tanks, submarines, and aircraft nearly uninterrupted up to the end of the war.  Where interruptions in construction did occur, it rarely had to do with resources, so much as the actual factory being destroyed.

   Now, of course, you'd be right to point out that attacks on Germany and Japan's infrastructure certainly did have an impact on the deployment of aircraft, armor, and ships.  But not because they were not being built - rather, because they could not get enough fuel to effectively operate (or, especially in the case of Japan, because they ran out of trained pilots and crew).  THIS is where the real cost of any military unit is - "keeping it in supply during combat".  I mean, heck, even our modern nuclear carriers can do an impressive job of station-keeping owing to the endurance of their reactor's fuel supply...as long as it's just station-keeping.  As soon as they have to fight...you get a couple weeks out of them, tops, before you need to start refueling, re-arming, and resupplying them.  And in a campaign like we'd be seeing in Rebellion - it's cutting off those supply lines to knock a system 'out of supply' and reduce the effectiveness of ships and troops deployed to it* that should be a key objective of the Rebel forces.

 

FWIW, it would have been interesting to see something like that implemented in Armada, too.  IE., scenarios or rules for a battle in a system where one side is 'out of supply'...not having a chance to resupply in some time due to convoys not getting through.  Maybe some point difference to balance it, but effects could be things like 'maximum speed of ships is limited to 1/2 their normal maximum', or penalties to command or engineering values, etc.  In a campaign game, that could be a useful boost to a Rebel cell - perhaps the starting OOB has the Imperial fleet twice the size of the Rebel fleet or more, but the Rebels can do missions hitting convoys until the Imperial supply situation is weak enough that the major warships are suffering supply problems, and then those targets could be hit.

 

(Of course, then you get to the question of how to make those asymmetrical battles "fun".  Which was sort of another weakness of Armada.  Granted, I love the objectives as part of the game, but...in reality, practically every naval battle that has even been fought has had the two sides wildly unevenly matched, although with equally very different victory conditions.)

[Gottmituns205 1,604]

^ I read the above post in the sound of Vader's voice in a New Hope.

 

I have been awake for nearly 24 hours doing finals and...yeah...I'm kinda there but not.

 

Cool though. 

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

I see.

 

Okay, so your argument against Rebellion is that you do not find it realistic enough from a simulationist point of view. That's fair, I suppose, and there can be fun in pursuing that.

 

Nevertheless, it seems to me that there are ways to understand the mechanics of the game in a way that suspends disbelief.

 

What I do like about Rebellion is that it models asymmetric warfare, rather than a 'fair fight' between seeming equals.  In X-Wing and Armada both, players come to the field with equal points and roughly equal numbers, subject to flexible build choices. In Rebellion, the Empire starts off owning the galaxy and needs to hunt down the Rebels before they gain too much appeal with galactic society. I imagine that there are things that affect the 'clock', but I don't know much more than what I've read on FFG and seen in some review videos.
 

Anyway (to get back on topic), the Gozanti and GR-75 models from that game look like they'd be roughly in scale for Armada. I'm assuming that the TIE fighters are the same size as the Armada TIE fighters. Though the GR-75 looks like it's about the same length as the CR90, but I imagine that the CR90 from Armada is a little bigger. I do think that they're going to be about right, and that might indeed mean a savings on FFG's part in bringing those models to Armada, if they are casting them for Rebellion. If that's what they're doing, then there might not be much added value in using those models for Armada, if they're about to announce the Assault Carrier and Gozanti for Wave 3.

 

[xanderf 6,795]

Anyway (to get back on topic), the Gozanti and GR-75 models from that game look like they'd be roughly in scale for Armada. I'm assuming that the TIE fighters are the same size as the Armada TIE fighters. Though the GR-75 looks like it's about the same length as the CR90, but I imagine that the CR90 from Armada is a little bigger. I do think that they're going to be about right, and that might indeed mean a savings on FFG's part in bringing those models to Armada, if they are casting them for Rebellion.

 

 

Yeah, looking at the level of detail on the model, I'd definitely guess that the Rebellion CR90 is a good deal smaller than the Armada CR90.

 

Hadn't considered the GR75, but you are right - it's in the same boat as the Gozanti.  "Looks about right" for Armada, which given the sliding scale, is really all the closer you need to be.

 

So I'd be a bit surprised if the GR75 and Gozanti aren't part of wave 3 (on the other hand, maybe that points to them definitely being in Armada, but NOT wave 3...IE., all production of those models could be going to Rebellion to get that out on schedule, and since Armada would need to see them painted on top of being finished...?)