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Spaceman91

Limitations on turrets (not moaning)

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So I was sat looking at the turret upgrades. They all have a range limit of some sort (eg 1-2, 2-3). I assume that this is balance related (I have no problems with this) but would a secondary weapon turret upgrade that is range 1-3 be broken?

You don't get your range 1 bonus (you do rob your opponent of the range 3 bonus though).

So as an example:

Heavy Laser turret

Attack 3

Range 1-3

(Insert HLC test here)

Would that be broken?

Side note: I'm not saying add more turrets to the game, there are enough as is tbh, I'm just interested to know if people think it could be done without being broken.

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

I never understood why blaster turret was so restrictive.

Who thought that was a good idea.

Would a range 1-3 turret need to be 7+ points? Just going from how powerful TLT is.

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

I never understood why blaster turret was so restrictive.

Who thought that was a good idea.

Would a range 1-3 turret need to be 7+ points? Just going from how powerful TLT is.

The reason Blaster Turret ended up the way it did was almost certainly based on conservative design. That was wave 3 and the first time they really started going in some new directions with design. Better to be safe than sorry. And they didn't have nearly the same level of play testers. They have obviously learned a great deal since then.

As for a Range 1-3 Heavy Laser Turret that would have the same ability as the Heavy Laser Cannon, 7 points is far too cheap. That's how much an HLC costs and with that you are limited to range 2-3 and primary/front arc only.

If you are proposing a Turret version with the same general mechanic that would allow you to throw 4 dice at any range in a 360 degree radius of your ship you will have created something obscenely overpowered unless you give it a substantial cost.

Where is the downside to such a weapon? Where is its weakness? You can't let it fire at every range and get that many dice. No way, no how.

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

I never understood why blaster turret was so restrictive.

Who thought that was a good idea.

Would a range 1-3 turret need to be 7+ points? Just going from how powerful TLT is.

The reason Blaster Turret ended up the way it did was almost certainly based on conservative design. That was wave 3 and the first time they really started going in some new directions with design. Better to be safe than sorry. And they didn't have nearly the same level of play testers. They have obviously learned a great deal since then.

As for a Range 1-3 Heavy Laser Turret that would have the same ability as the Heavy Laser Cannon, 7 points is far too cheap. That's how much an HLC costs and with that you are limited to range 2-3 and primary/front arc only.

If you are proposing a Turret version with the same general mechanic that would allow you to throw 4 dice at any range in a 360 degree radius of your ship you will have created something obscenely overpowered unless you give it a substantial cost.

Where is the downside to such a weapon? Where is its weakness? You can't let it fire at every range and get that many dice. No way, no how.

That's why I dropped it to 3 dice. 4 dice turret in any form is just wrong.

4 dice attacks all round need to be rare.

HLC

Phantom

Range 1 attacks from fighters

Add any more to that and it's a bad move IMO

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Dorsal Turret is the best, most competitively priced working man's turret. I think it's honestly the perfect base-line in which to compare all other turrets. That being said, it's a whole 1pt cheaper then Blaster turret. You know what you get for 1 more point in the blaster turret? A single 1 extra dice at range 2 with a restriction of when you can shoot it based upon your action.

Blaster turret is obsolete, long live Dorsal turret!

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Dorsal Turret is the best, most competitively priced working man's turret. I think it's honestly the perfect base-line in which to compare all other turrets. That being said, it's a whole 1pt cheaper then Blaster turret. You know what you get for 1 more point in the blaster turret? A single 1 extra dice at range 2 with a restriction of when you can shoot it based upon your action.

Blaster turret is obsolete, long live Dorsal turret!

Has it ever been anything but obsolete?

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

I never understood why blaster turret was so restrictive.

Who thought that was a good idea.

Would a range 1-3 turret need to be 7+ points? Just going from how powerful TLT is.

The reason Blaster Turret ended up the way it did was almost certainly based on conservative design. That was wave 3 and the first time they really started going in some new directions with design. Better to be safe than sorry. And they didn't have nearly the same level of play testers. They have obviously learned a great deal since then.

As for a Range 1-3 Heavy Laser Turret that would have the same ability as the Heavy Laser Cannon, 7 points is far too cheap. That's how much an HLC costs and with that you are limited to range 2-3 and primary/front arc only.

If you are proposing a Turret version with the same general mechanic that would allow you to throw 4 dice at any range in a 360 degree radius of your ship you will have created something obscenely overpowered unless you give it a substantial cost.

Where is the downside to such a weapon? Where is its weakness? You can't let it fire at every range and get that many dice. No way, no how.

That's why I dropped it to 3 dice. 4 dice turret in any form is just wrong.

4 dice attacks all round need to be rare.

HLC

Phantom

Range 1 attacks from fighters

Add any more to that and it's a bad move IMO

 

 

Ghost

Outrider + HLC (for the Turret)

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

I never understood why blaster turret was so restrictive.

Who thought that was a good idea.

Would a range 1-3 turret need to be 7+ points? Just going from how powerful TLT is.

The reason Blaster Turret ended up the way it did was almost certainly based on conservative design. That was wave 3 and the first time they really started going in some new directions with design. Better to be safe than sorry. And they didn't have nearly the same level of play testers. They have obviously learned a great deal since then.

As for a Range 1-3 Heavy Laser Turret that would have the same ability as the Heavy Laser Cannon, 7 points is far too cheap. That's how much an HLC costs and with that you are limited to range 2-3 and primary/front arc only.

If you are proposing a Turret version with the same general mechanic that would allow you to throw 4 dice at any range in a 360 degree radius of your ship you will have created something obscenely overpowered unless you give it a substantial cost.

Where is the downside to such a weapon? Where is its weakness? You can't let it fire at every range and get that many dice. No way, no how.

That's why I dropped it to 3 dice. 4 dice turret in any form is just wrong.

4 dice attacks all round need to be rare.

HLC

Phantom

Range 1 attacks from fighters

Add any more to that and it's a bad move IMO

 

Ghost

Outrider + HLC (for the Turret)

The Outrider has its donut so I'm OK with that.

The ghost is gunna be 70%-100% of your list so I'm OK with that too.

4 dice attacks need to be carefully balanced. It's one of those things that could easierly brake the game if it's done wrong.

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Also, ordnance.  Everyone forgets ordnance.

Redline and Tomax will soon change that...

To be fair until now torps have been almost useless. Torpedos and Missiles are OK to be 4 and 5 dice purely from the fact you get to fire it once or twice then it's gone so it pays it's price for being that "strong"

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I would hate a turret that works at all ranges - the good thing about that upgrade slot is that it keeps maneuvering relevant while giving stiff ships a better chance at being relevant.

The last thing you want from turret ships, (For balance), is them to skirt the field and having their firing button glued down as the player concentrate on other ships to do actual flying. Turret ships take away the need to get into arc, there has to be a down side for such a great upside.

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It's brokenness would depend on the cost of course, if you make the cost prohibitively high it wouldn't be broken. If you put it in a spam range then you'd be in trouble.

 

You could easily have Blaster Turret with range 3 because the activation cost is high and would work against mitigation (it would make HWK's more interesting though).

I never understood why blaster turret was so restrictive.

Who thought that was a good idea.

Would a range 1-3 turret need to be 7+ points? Just going from how powerful TLT is.

The reason Blaster Turret ended up the way it did was almost certainly based on conservative design. That was wave 3 and the first time they really started going in some new directions with design. Better to be safe than sorry. And they didn't have nearly the same level of play testers. They have obviously learned a great deal since then.

As for a Range 1-3 Heavy Laser Turret that would have the same ability as the Heavy Laser Cannon, 7 points is far too cheap. That's how much an HLC costs and with that you are limited to range 2-3 and primary/front arc only.

If you are proposing a Turret version with the same general mechanic that would allow you to throw 4 dice at any range in a 360 degree radius of your ship you will have created something obscenely overpowered unless you give it a substantial cost.

Where is the downside to such a weapon? Where is its weakness? You can't let it fire at every range and get that many dice. No way, no how.

That's why I dropped it to 3 dice. 4 dice turret in any form is just wrong.

4 dice attacks all round need to be rare.

HLC

Phantom

Range 1 attacks from fighters

Add any more to that and it's a bad move IMO

Totally missed the 3 dice attack part.

The entire conversation is really a moot point anyway. There is enough hate towards 4x TLT lists as is. There is no way FFG would create a turret that you could fire 3 dice at any range and be able to field a set of 4.

The premise simply doesn't work just from a standpoint of it being terribly boring for game play. Those lists would happen and it wouldn't be fun.

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I suspect the point value of a full on Heavy Laser Turret range 1-3 with 4 dice and the HLC dice mechanic would be at least 20 points and probably closer to 25.  At 3 dice it might be something that could be run at 15-18 points and be balanced by the point value.  This is a huge boon though to any turreted ship, any list that could run more than 1-2 of them would be very challenging to play.  I personally don't think anything like this has any place in the game.

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Seeing as the punishing one title that takes a 2 dice turret to 3 dice costs 12 points. I would think a 3 dice turret at range 1-3 would be insanely expensive. To get a 3 dice turret on the yt-2400 costs 9 points.

I would think your base line would be 9 points plus.

Does the game need such a turret? No not really.

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Seeing as the punishing one title that takes a 2 dice turret to 3 dice costs 12 points. I would think a 3 dice turret at range 1-3 would be insanely expensive. To get a 3 dice turret on the yt-2400 costs 9 points.

I would think your base line would be 9 points plus.

Does the game need such a turret? No not really.

I'm completely behind you on that it doesn't need it. I was just interested to see how much it would cost and if it would be completely broken.

Outrider can be cheaper.... flechette cannon ( runs for cover before the hate hits ;) )

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Seeing as the punishing one title that takes a 2 dice turret to 3 dice costs 12 points. I would think a 3 dice turret at range 1-3 would be insanely expensive. To get a 3 dice turret on the yt-2400 costs 9 points.

I would think your base line would be 9 points plus.

Does the game need such a turret? No not really.

I'm completely behind you on that it doesn't need it. I was just interested to see how much it would cost and if it would be completely broken.

Outrider can be cheaper.... flechette cannon ( runs for cover before the hate hits ;) )

 

Also ion cannon, but neither is doing full normal damage, so they don't really count.

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Seeing as the punishing one title that takes a 2 dice turret to 3 dice costs 12 points. I would think a 3 dice turret at range 1-3 would be insanely expensive. To get a 3 dice turret on the yt-2400 costs 9 points.

I would think your base line would be 9 points plus.

Does the game need such a turret? No not really.

I'm completely behind you on that it doesn't need it. I was just interested to see how much it would cost and if it would be completely broken.

Outrider can be cheaper.... flechette cannon ( runs for cover before the hate hits ;) )

Also ion cannon, but neither is doing full normal damage, so they don't really count.
TBH I only use mangler on mine. HLC leaves that doughnut and I'm not good enough to always keep people out of that hole.

Thinking about it though the cheapest YT2400 with flechette + Outrider might be a really annoying stress giver (I'm well aware of better/cheaper things being out there)

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The trouble with Mangler Dash is that a well-flown Soontir is close to immune to it in isolation, he only needs to roll a single result of any kind to evade it entirely (autothrusters, evade token, focus token or evade result - just under 5% chance on 3 dice if you've hit him already, or 2% chance on 4 dice if not, and that's if you roll all at least booms) so if you run against him, especially if  Dash is your last ship, you're a bit stuffed.    HLC has a better chance of hitting him, even with the donut hole.

 

If you're flying club games then it's probably not worth caring about, but if you're flying tournament games, you will probably run into Standard Super Soontir and if you don't take him down first - a challenge in itself - you probably don't take him down at all with Mangler Dash.

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For an HLT, maybe something like this to keep the damage up without making it too easy to use:

 

Heavy Laser Turret; 8 points; turret; range 2-3; damage 4

Action: Place a tracking token on this card.

Attack (target lock): Remove a tracking token from this card to perform this attack (even against a ship outside your firing arc). Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change all of your [critical] results to [damage] results.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

For an all-range turret, maybe this:

 

Quad Blaster Turret; 5 points; turret; range 1-3, damage 2

Attack (focus): Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc).

Attack (target lock): Spend your target lock to perform this attack (even against a ship outside your firing arc), rolling 1 additional attack die.

Edited by DagobahDave

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That Heavy Laser Turret costs 12 points on the Outrider.

Screw new turrets, lets make a new cannon.

 

 

 

Flak Cannon; range 1-2, 3 attack dice

 

If this attack hits, cancel all results and deal 1 critical damage.

Make this attack twice.

 

3 points, or 1 point if on an M3-A Interceptor with the Heavy Scyk title.

 

 

 

SHOTGUN META!

Edited by Vulf

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