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Andira Runehand Hero Ability

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Andria Runehand's ability reads: 

 

"Each time a hero within 3 spaces of you suffers 1 or more hearts from an attack, the figure that performed the attack suffers 1 heart." 

 

Two questions: 

 

(1) I assume since it does not read 'another hero' it applies to her as well?

 

(2) If a monster uses blast or fire breath to affect more then one hero, I assume the monster would take one damage per hero damaged? Basically meaning if a monster such as the lava beetles uses blast they will essentially kill themselves? Or does the ability only apply to the hero being targeted by the attack?

 

 

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You're correct on both assumptions. 

 

1) Yes, the effect applies to her as well.

 

2) Blast effects that effect any heroes with three spaces of her will in a sense trigger for each hero affected. So yeah, it'll hurt ( the monster.) 

 

Just had Gargan Mirklace kill himself and end the quest because of her ability. 

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Andira's heroic ability is excellent and a regular frustration to me when I'm Overlord.

 

Just wanted to give a few tips here: Monster abilities that indirectly damage the hero (such as Barghest howl) will *not* trigger damage from Andira. Only successful attacks trigger this ability.

 

Abilities that reposition Andira are also a strong counter. Monsters like Changelings and Plague Worms are great as they can move her out of position to open up opportunities to attack unfettered.

 

And finally, one nice little perk the Overlord can use when facing Andira is that if a hero under the influence of Dark Charm/Dark Host/etc. attacks another hero, Andira will damage them as well. She cannot choose whether or not to use this ability. Defeating a hero in this manner is a nice way to get back at the heroes!

 

This is also true if a hero uses a multi-target attack like Blast and harms a hero.

Edited by Charmy

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Are you sure about this?

Blast and other such attacks are all resolved simultaneously, you roll defense and attack dice simultaneously, I do not think there is a separate damage step.

Also, we have a parallel case with Ancestor spirits. This is a card that is exhausted on the condition that monster(s) suffer damage through a class skill. It treats this necessarily as one single trigger.

I think if you can on the one hand trigger a skill in reaction to several figures suffering damage simultaneously, it seems a bit weird if you would then treat each hero suffering damage as a separate triggering event for a similar thing.
It says each time, if I am correct, I do not think those are two separate "times" for this to apply separately.
 

5.   Deal Damage : Any damage not canceled by defense dice or other
effects is applied to each affected figure.

This is also one single step in the rules, so I think this is completely simultaneous.

I honestly do not think it makes sense to have this be handled this way if Ancestor spirit and similar abilities all treat it as one triggering condition.

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I am pretty certain that each damage step is a separate trigger... I need to look through my rule responses (or just check the CRRG) but I'm thinking is was a question about Dark Pact (whether the OL can choose to damage the reanimate FIRST to prevent the necromancer from redirecting damage to the renaimate. The answer was essentially: damage from multi-space attacks is resolved in most cases as a single event. The exception is when there is an inferfering trigger (such as Andir's ability) which creates a timing conflict. When that happens, each event must be treated independently as each has distinct triggers.

The best other example I can think of is the wildlander's nimble. Let's say a goblin moves into a space asldjacent to the wildlander with its last MP. The goblin enters the space, the wildlander moves one space, and the goblin finishes moving "all at once". Simple, right? Now, imagine the same situation, but a shadow dragon is moving instead of a goblin. When Nimble is triggered, things have to happen in a very particular order:

-the dragon enters the space

-Nimble is triggered

-the dragon expands

-the wildlander moves

-the dragon ends its movement.

In the first case, the goblin doesn't have anything else to do, so it may as well happen simultaneously. The necessity of the dragon's expansion forces everything to happen in order.

It's like multiplication. If x and y are numbers, xy=yx. Order doesn't matter. However, if x and y are matricies, xy =/= yx. In fact, one of those two things may not even be possible. The inclusion of non-commuting elements forces the bookkeeping to be exact.

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13 hours ago, Unknown X said:

Are you sure about this?

 

Like you I wasn't sure, so I asked FFG about it. I made the question very specific so as not to leave any possibility of doubt in the answer (and because the lieutenant in question appeared in the next quest we were playing).

Q: If Merick uses Ignite affecting 3 heroes with Andira Runehand among them, and they all suffer damage, does he suffer 3 or 1 damage from her hero ability?

A: He suffers 3 damage.

The answer came from Nathan Hajek, designer (among others) of the Heirs of Blood campaign, so now I am sure. :)

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10 hours ago, Ispher said:

Like you I wasn't sure, so I asked FFG about it. I made the question very specific so as not to leave any possibility of doubt in the answer (and because the lieutenant in question appeared in the next quest we were playing).

Q: If Merick uses Ignite affecting 3 heroes with Andira Runehand among them, and they all suffer damage, does he suffer 3 or 1 damage from her hero ability?

A: He suffers 3 damage.

The answer came from Nathan Hajek, designer (among others) of the Heirs of Blood campaign, so now I am sure. :)

Went ahead and posted this to FFG Sez on BGG.

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I will add the following bullet to the CRRG entry for Andira:

If Andira's Hero ability is triggered from an attack affecting multiple heroes, the active player decides on the sequence in which heroes are dealt damage. The attacking monster suffers 1 {HEART} each time immediately after a hero suffers at least 1 {HEART} from the attack. If the attacking monster is defeated,  the attack is immediately resolved and additional affected heroes do not suffer {HEART} from the attack.

Do you agree with this interpretation? Any suggestions to improve readability?

Edited by Sadgit

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Looks clear to me. Are we sure that the attack or ability won't continue to resolve? It's not like we have a check for if the attacker is defeated in the middle of their attack. It also feels like one event (being defeated) would be interrupting another (an attack action), which we generally only do if the event specifically allows you to. My gut feeling is the attack resolves completely for all affected figures, then the attacker resolves being defeated.

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21 hours ago, Ispher said:

Like you I wasn't sure, so I asked FFG about it. I made the question very specific so as not to leave any possibility of doubt in the answer (and because the lieutenant in question appeared in the next quest we were playing).

Q: If Merick uses Ignite affecting 3 heroes with Andira Runehand among them, and they all suffer damage, does he suffer 3 or 1 damage from her hero ability?

A: He suffers 3 damage.

The answer came from Nathan Hajek, designer (among others) of the Heirs of Blood campaign, so now I am sure. :)

Official it sure is then, I still think it is a pretty bad way to handle it, both for the reason the in other instances, multi target / affected figure attacks get treated as one event for triggers and for balance reasons.
Getting +1 damage under specific circumstances tends to be a very typical hero ability for heroes with relatively balanced stats, we get Brother Gherinn as another healer with that for example but also Heroes like Steelhorn or others are an example.
It is very rare to have a need to position heroes that far apart that Andira's ability does not apply, so it tends to be 1 damage per monster attack without any way to avoid it safe for not attacking at all - which is usually not an option. Even though that damage is out of your own control, it tends to be a lot more extra damage than for other heroes with damage enhancing abilities.

...say, how come it is (at least without the conversion kit) almost always the healers who are a bit on the too strong side?

Honestly, I think I may just as well remove the Hero and Monster Packs with the troublesome components, since it is pretty rare for any single pack to come with enough heroes and monsters that would be sorely missed.
 

Quote

I will add the following bullet to the CRRG entry for Andira:

If Andira's Hero ability is triggered from an attack affecting multiple heroes, the active player decides on the sequence in which heroes are dealt damage. The attacking monster suffers 1 {HEART} each time immediately after a hero suffers at least 1 {HEART} from the attack. If the attacking monster is defeated,  the attack is immediately resolved and additional affected heroes do not suffer {HEART} from the attack.

Do you agree with this interpretation? Any suggestions to improve readability?

Why that interpretation?
It seems really weird to imagine that a blast stops hitting other figures.
I also do not think there is any oprecedent for an attack being aborted during the deal damage step for any reason.
You effectively add something to an already rather strong ability. Why?

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I am not sure if my interpretation is correct here. That's why I posted it here in the first place.  However, we should discuss this based on RAW and official rulings on similar effects alone, regardless of our opinion if this is a strong or weak effect that might be not well balanced.

Usually if a figure is defeated, its turn or activation immediately ends. If a figure has damage tokens equal to its Health, it is defeated and the attack is immediately resolved.

Quote

I also do not think there is any oprecedent for an attack being aborted during the deal damage step for any reason.

I could respond that there is no oprecedent of an attack not being immediately terminated, when the attacker suffers damage equal to its Health (unless there is a specific trigger such as in Death Siphon, Orkell's Heroic, One Fist's Heroic). If there is a sequence of steps as Zaltyre suggests, there are arguments for a immediate termination.

Edited by Sadgit

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I think it's worth checking into the uFAQs on this (and if nothing is found, creating a new question). I vaguely recall language about attacks terminating when all affected figures are defeated, but  I'm not sure what is said about dead attackers. It must have come up before.

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I guess you are referring to this uFAQ:

Quote

Rules Question:
Two related questions: 1) Can "Flurry" be played after either of the attacks granted by "Blood Rage," resulting in 3 extra attacks before the monster is defeated? 2a) Can a Knight who defeats a monster while using "Stalwart" then exhaust "Advance" before being defeated to move and attack? 2b) If yes, could the OL use the timing rule to defeat the Knight before doing his "Advance" move and attack? 
Answer:
1) Yes, it is possible to play Flurry after either attack granted by Blood Rage.
2a) Yes, a Knight who defeats a monster while using Stalwart may then exhaust Advance to move and attack before being defeated.
2b) There is not a timing conflict between Advance and Stalwart. Advance triggers when a figure is defeated and Stalwart when the attack is resolved, which are not simultaneous events. The defeat of the figure happens just before (and in fact often leads to) the resolution of the attack. This distinction is clearer in attacks that target multiple figures. The attack is not resolved at the time one figure is defeated, but after each figure has been dealt damage (defeated or not), the attack would then resolve.

This indeed seems to indicate that the attack is resolved after all figures suffered damage.

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That's the one I was thinking of- but it doesn't include the attacker being defeated until after the attack (by design).

Consider master fire imps, and the "combustible" ability (if this monster is defeated, each adj hero suffers a wound).

I'm thinking of a situation like this: Leoric of the book with 1 health uses his heroic feat. He is adjacent to a master fire imp and a goblin.He rolls beautifully, enough to clobber both monsters.

Now, he COULD choose to damage the goblin first with a clear result: everyone dies. Goblin and imp take lots of damage, and he suffers 1 and is KO.

But what if he chooses to damage/defeat the imp first?

imp takes damage, is defeated.

This triggers combustible, which deals a wound to Leoric and KOs him.

Does the goblin now die? Or does he escape because Leoric is toast? (I think he's dead).

I've presented an avoidable solution, but for a sure dilemma, replace the gobl8n with a second master imp. Either will KO Leoric when it dies. Do both die, or just one?

Notably, MOST "couter-attack" or rebounding damage abilities trigger after an attack resolves, avoiding this issue entirely. Combustible does not.

Edited by Zaltyre

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4 hours ago, Proto Persona said:

Looks clear to me. Are we sure that the attack or ability won't continue to resolve? It's not like we have a check for if the attacker is defeated in the middle of their attack. It also feels like one event (being defeated) would be interrupting another (an attack action), which we generally only do if the event specifically allows you to. My gut feeling is the attack resolves completely for all affected figures, then the attacker resolves being defeated.

My gut instinct is that all figures take damage (in whatever order) from the initial attack, then Andira Runehand's reflect-back damage takes effect, and one behavior can't "interrupt" the other.

Reason being, Descent isn't Magic; there isn't really a concept of interrupts or "the stack" in Descent like there is in CCG's, except in the case of a few specific cards that specify such. So one thing happens, then another.

Edited by 10355ts

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I have been think about the uFAQ above. I actually never realized that something like this was possible:

- Knight attacks with with Dawnblade and rolls a surge to affect monster A and monster B.
- Knight defeats monster A (Attack 1) and interrupts the attack to Advance on monster B
- Knight dealt damage to monster B (Attack 2), not killing it, finishing the interrupt, Attack 2 resolves
- Knight deals damage to monster B from Attack 1
- Attack 1 resolves 

Edited by Sadgit

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Yep, and it allows to attack one target twice between the start and and end of attack 1. 

Concerning Andira's ability, I guess we need to try to get an answer from FFG to resolve it.
 

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This still seems like an 'unfinished business' here to me.

The shadow dragon spit an angry fireball to burn all 4 heroes. Andira's magic hit back hard while the heroes start to burn one by one. And then all of a sudden after 2nd heroe's cloak catches fire the dragon is knocked out and the fireball is gone in a blink of an eye and the rest of the heroes are saved, no harm. And they can even vote which should be the 2nd and which one to be saved from fire. I mean I know it's a boardgame but some rule interpretations seems a bit harsh for me.

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Posted (edited)

And yet, it is virtually always the case with the majority of board games that:

Rules/Game Mechanics >> (are far greater than/outweigh) Perceived Fluff

EDIT: It is never a good idea, especially with FFG games, to read "intent" into the game, its rules, etc.

Edited by any2cards

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