Demolisher: Move-Attack-ET?

[Pilot no55389 120]

Ok, so I have a question about the Demolisher's ability to fire between movement steps, specifically if it is possible. For reference:

 

 

Demolisher: "During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a manoeuvre."

 

Engine Techs: "Nav: After you perform a manoeuvre, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 manoeuvre."

 

 

Effect Use and Timing, pg5 Rules Reference:

• Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “Nav:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.
• An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

 

 

So, the question: can Demolisher attack, move, attack and then use Engine Techs?

 

My reading of the rules reference would suggest not, because an after effect (Engine Techs, in this case) occurs immediately after the specified event (a manoeuvre) and so if the Demolisher were to attack after the maneouvre then the time to trigger the after effects has expired.

 

Is this a correct reading? Have I missed something that allows it?

[Green Knight 9,746]

Please just search the forums - this exact question has been asked 100 times before

 

Both of these are possible:

 

Shoot-Move-Demo shot-Eng tech

Shoot-Move-Eng tech-Demo shot

 

Why?

 

Because both Demo and Eng techs say AFTER a maneuver. SO you, the player, get to pick in what order they resolve.

[Green Knight 9,746]

Btw: Your "After" references implies that a single card/whatever can only trigger once, not that multiple effects can't trigger.

[Pilot no55389 120]

 

Please just search the forums - this exact question has been asked 100 times before 

 

Why?

Because both Demo and Eng techs say AFTER a maneuver. SO you, the player, get to pick in what order they resolve.

 

I did try, but couldn't seem to find anything official/managed to miss the point below.

 

I do see the notion that Demolisher does say after...that's a good point that had slipped my notice, apparently! So yeah, I guess them both being "after" effects means you get to choose Demolisher shot first, then ETs.

 

Ok thanks, I just needed someone to poke me in the "after"

Edited February 24, 2016 by Pilot no55389

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

Oops! It means I missread something.

 

I don't want begin an endless debate, just to improve my understanding. I thougt  *shoot-move-shoot-move it was not possible cause as Pilot said on the OP effects with command icon as a header can be resolve once WHILE resolving the matching command.

 

This WHILE and the AFTER on the Engine Text really confuse me a bit. I understood that I "activate" Engine Techs during the navigation even when it takes place after the movement (maybe like redirect or brace token). This way I resolve Engine Techs before Demolisher cause Engine Techs is resolved WHILE and Demolisher works AFTER. As long as I do that I don't apply "same-timing-rule". Do you know what I trying to explain?

 

I prefer to have available the * shoot-move-shoot-move option but I thought ET are while, and Demo is after. What I am missing?

 

EDIT: sorry, I wanted to say*

Edited February 24, 2016 by ovinomanc3r

[daveddo 160]

Oops! It means I missread something.

 

I don't want begin an endless debate, just to improve my understanding. I thougt move-attack-move-attack it was not possible cause as Pilot said on the OP effects with command icon as a header can be resolve once WHILE resolving the matching command.

 

This WHILE and the AFTER on the Engine Text really confuse me a bit. I understood that I "activate" Engine Techs during the navigation even when it takes place after the movement (maybe like redirect or brace token). This way I resolve Engine Techs before Demolisher cause Engine Techs is resolved WHILE and Demolisher works AFTER. As long as I do that I don't apply "same-timing-rule". Do you know what I trying to explain?

 

I prefer to have available the move-shoot-move-shoot option but I thought ET are while, and Demo is after. What I am missing?

this scenario is not legal because Demolisher's text reads: 

 

 

During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver.

which means that only one of your two allotted attacks for the activation may be performed after a maneuver.

Edited February 24, 2016 by daveddo

[Lyraeus 4,759]

It is in the FAQ I believe.

[Green Knight 9,746]

It is in the FAQ I believe.

 

Is it? There is a Demo entry there, but I don't think it addresses this specific issue, just that it can shoot after engine techs. IIRC

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

 

It is in the FAQ I believe.

 

Is it? There is a Demo entry there, but I don't think it addresses this specific issue, just that it can shoot after engine techs. IIRC

 

No it isn't. There is only what Green Knight said.

 

How hard would be add a line allowing/disallowing shots after move and before Engine Techs? XD

[daveddo 160]

 

 

It is in the FAQ I believe.

 

Is it? There is a Demo entry there, but I don't think it addresses this specific issue, just that it can shoot after engine techs. IIRC

 

No it isn't. There is only what Green Knight said.

 

How hard would be add a line allowing/disallowing shots after move and before Engine Techs? XD

 

Furthermore, the wording answers the timing and number of times based on the rules. 

 

 

During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver.

 

"During your activation" is the timing trigger of when you can trigger the card's ability. Because the trigger is "During your activation" the ability triggers and by the framework of card triggers that is the only time it triggers - one time during an activation. The rest of the sentence tells you where the ability is added, which in this case is adding one attack after you execute a maneuver. Also the wording "one of your attacks" means that only one attack may be made after you make a maneuver.

Edited February 24, 2016 by daveddo

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Actually the Demolisher section in the FAQ, first paragraph states that it can makes its attack after engine techs

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

It is in the FAQ I believe.

 

Is it? There is a Demo entry there, but I don't think it addresses this specific issue, just that it can shoot after engine techs. IIRC

No it isn't. There is only what Green Knight said.

 

How hard would be add a line allowing/disallowing shots after move and before Engine Techs? XD

Furthermore, the wording answers the timing and number of times based on the rules. 

 

 

During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver.

 

"During your activation" is the timing trigger of when you can trigger the card's ability. Because the trigger is "During your activation" the ability triggers and by the framework of card triggers that is the only time it triggers - one time during an activation. The rest of the sentence tells you where the ability is added, which in this case is adding one attack after you execute a maneuver. Also the wording "one of your attacks" means that only one attack may be made after you make a maneuver.

Oh ****! Now Demolished is DURING, Engine techs are WHILE and both takes place AFTER a maneuver. Maybe I take some minutes and put my thoughts together.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Okay so, Breaking it down.

 

Demolisher

"During your activation, you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver."

 

Engine Techs
After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver."

 

 

 

Demolisher FAQ:

 

If Demolisher is equipped with Engine Techs, it can perform one of its attacks after it executes the maneuver granted by Engine Techs. Demolisher only affects one of the ship’s attacks. It must perform its other attack during the Attack step of its activation or that attack is forfeited.

 

 

Exerpt from Effect Rules and Timing:

 

• An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

• If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.

• If both players have effects with the same timing, the first player resolves all of his effects with that timing first.

• Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified

 

 

Essentially, the second Demolisher shot is allowed after you execute an Maneuver.
Your standard activation is "Attack, Attack, Maneuver" - Demolisher lets you "save" one attack for after the maneuver.

However, Engine Techs also allows you to execute a maneuver after you execute a Maneuver.

 

The two "Afters" come up to same timing, so you resolve which after is immediately after, and which after is after the after...

 

Engine techs is a maneuver (a speed 1 maneuver) which is an allowed trigger for the second attack of Demolisher.

 

Which leaves allowed Exceptions for Demolisher:

 

 

Attack - Attack - Move - Engine Techs

Attack - Move - Attack - Engine Techs

Attack - Move - Engine Techs - Attack

 

 

The All Important WHY:

 

You can have the Attack and then Engine Techs, because Demolisher has an overriding presence of "During your Activation"

 

You perform at least one attack (or forfeit it), and then you execute your Maneuver - This will include the activation of the Command (Nav) required for Engine Techs.  The Nav Icon on Engine Techs means Engine Techs triggers "While" during your first maneuver, to add a trigger that states "AFTER" your Maneuver, you may Maneuver again.

This leaves you with Two "AFTER" Triggers that are Simultaneous with each other.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Man, I went to edit and Quoted myself.  How Meta is That?

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Drasnighta

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

Man, I went to edit and Quoted myself.  How Meta is That?

Is like the fourth wall on the fourth wall from Deadpool XD

[DWRR 898]

Is it that time of the month again...

 

Demolisher questions and attack sequence questions...

[DWRR 898]

A bunch of stuff about Demolisher...

 

Can this just be copied into a stickied thread titled

 

DEMOLISHER - Whatever you were about to ask is probably wrong...

Edited February 24, 2016 by DWRR

[Drasnighta 26,832]

When I'm on the ball, I don't mind answering most* questions and rules queries...    Even if I have answered them a million times over.

 

Unfortunately, we just don't have the feedback current with FFG to be able to maintain a pinned post, as there's no local administrators...  Between that, and the way the Search Functions on these boards (Its a very robust Search function, but its also easy to get 6000 flagged posts in no order of relevance), sometimes, it is easier to ask again...

 

 

 

 

* There are some rules topics I won't get involved in anymore.  At the moment, its anything involving Line of Sight

[Vogons 195]

I'm glad it goes to the follow wording as strictly as possible rule of thumb. It says you can fire once after you execute a maneuver.  Since it doesn't specify the maneuver can be at any time during your overall move.  I know I'm restate what's above, but my point is I think I'm starting to get a handle on how to figure these things out. Of course having said that they'll change up on me.