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Armandhammer

If IA was released before X-wing…

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See I have wondered about this, you might not need all the big boxes to build your list, but you need the expansions to build the maps, no?

Right now you must own a Core set and a Twin Shadows set to play at a tournament, since you need tiles from both boxes. You don't need Return to Hoth, but odds are you will at some point.

I'd expect that after SCs wrap up and Regionals start, we'll very an update eliminating Space Station and adding one from RtH or one of its associated blisters, which all require RtH tiles.

 

 

Have FFG actually given a standardized time frame of how often the maps rotate? I know of the one that happened fairly recently but it would be good to gauge when to expect to be looking at new maps.

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Have FFG actually given a standardized time frame of how often the maps rotate?

Not that I've seen, but they said this in the news talking about the nerf to the 4x4 and eSab.

With a new season of Skirmish comes a new set of legal skirmish maps, starting January 1st, 2016.

So perhaps it will be each season? That would mean once a year.

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I can't remember where but I heard that we'll get a new set of maps from 1st March that only require Core (apparently EU doesn't have other expansions translated yet, so they are stuck with old stuff).   

 

That being said, it's past 1st of March now so I'm not sure anymore. 

 

As for the whole maps thing... it really depends on the tournament. I imagine Regionals/Nationals/Worlds will be very serious, but lets face it, if you're going to those ones, you're likely to own at least the 3 main expansions anyway right?   

For Store Champs, it would be far more flexible. Firstly you only need the tile sets for every 2 players. There would always be enough floating around to cover the few people who don't have an expansion. Technically not to the letter of the law, but that's really not what gaming is about right? 

As for x-wing popularity - best selling doesn't necessary mean super popular. It's all relative. I wasn't around for the early days of X-wing, but it's certainly skyrocketed in popularity in the last year or so. Maybe we're just a bit behind the curve in Australia, that's highly likely. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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Have FFG actually given a standardized time frame of how often the maps rotate?

Not that I've seen, but they said this in the news talking about the nerf to the 4x4 and eSab.

With a new season of Skirmish comes a new set of legal skirmish maps, starting January 1st, 2016.

So perhaps it will be each season? That would mean once a year.

Each OP kit rotation is a season. Makes sense, too. The maps changed 3 times last year, (well the first set and two changes) and changed once for the new year. I'd expect a change for regionals and Nats and one more in the fall for World's.

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See I have wondered about this, you might not need all the big boxes to build your list, but you need the expansions to build the maps, no?

Right now you must own a Core set and a Twin Shadows set to play at a tournament, since you need tiles from both boxes. You don't need Return to Hoth, but odds are you will at some point.

 

 

 

Don't go with that stupid rule. Print your maps on PVC and play on them. In Germany even Nationals were played on printed maps. I haven't palyed on the tiles the last 12 month... 

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Don't go with that stupid rule.

Not up to me. I'm not the one running the tournaments.

 

 

It is not up to you (alone), but it's up to you as the us community. Just continue bringing printed maps instead of the tiles...

 

American TOs really sent people home, who bring printed maps to the tournament?

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American TOs really sent people home, who bring printed maps to the tournament?

I don't know I've not played in any Imperial Assault tournaments. But if I were to play in this year's regional, it would be at the FFG event center, and I'm fairly sure they wouldn't allow printed maps.

They also are unlikely to allow them at worlds, or any other tournament FFG is running. So depending on how far you want to go in the competitive game, yes you do in fact have to have those tiles.

If you play local tournaments only and the TO is fine with printed maps, then use those. My IA community is tiny we'll have 4 people showing up for the SC, and none of us have played a ton. So I'll bring tiles because there is right now, no point in paying to print them out.

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Why are so many people talking as though IA is dead?

Is there something I don't know?

 

Not really…until you compare it to X-wing. 

 

200 people on that forum vs. IA’s 11 is only one indication that X-wing is running away with all the players. And even though I don’t play skirmish, many players are struggling to find opponents/start bigger groups. 

 

This relates to my original question wondering if it’s a case where X-wing players just don’t wanna transition/try IA because it came out after X-wing or it’s something else entirely. Many agree that the longer time needed to build maps/lists and broken meta to start didn’t help.

 

There’s a buzz but it’s more like a “that was a fun little game” type of buzz rather than a “every store has a weekly game night dedicated for IA” type of buzz if you know what I mean  :lol:

Edited by Armandhammer

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Not really…until you compare it to X-wing.

Part of the "issue" with Imperial Assault is that it's two games in one. I'd dare say that most copies sold were sold to people who were going to play the game as a group, and whom may or may not ever touch the skirmish part.

The other thing is, if I want to play some sort of fighter based game, I have no real options other than X-Wing. I don't mean Starfighters or Star Wars fighters, I mean any sort of air to air type combat. Wings of War and other games like it aren't being published right now.

But for skirmish level games there's a fair number of them, including sci-fi ones. The only thing that Imperial Assault really has going for it is the IP behind it, when it comes to a skirmish level game.

The fact that it's on tiles or even printed maps vs using a ruler with free movement may or may not be a point in its favor, but I'd guess most people who are interested in a skirmish level game would prefer more freedom.

Imperial Assault is a fun game, I have fun with both the campaign and skirmish. But the truth is that it suffers a bit from being a hybrid and if it was marketed as a pure skirmish game as is... I don't think it would of sold as well as it did.

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Why are so many people talking as though IA is dead?

Is there something I don't know?

 

Not really…until you compare it to X-wing. 

 

200 people on that forum vs. IA’s 11 is only one indication that X-wing is running away with all the players. And even though I don’t play skirmish, many players are struggling to find opponents/start bigger groups. 

 

This relates to my original question wondering if it’s a case where X-wing players just don’t wanna transition/try IA because it came out after X-wing or it’s something else entirely. Many agree that the longer time needed to build maps/lists and broken meta to start didn’t help.

 

There’s a buzz but it’s more like a “that was a fun little game” type of buzz rather than a “every store has a weekly game night dedicated for IA” type of buzz if you know what I mean  :lol:

 

 

X-Wing is a fantastic game, and the energy level is very high with it even though it's about 5 years old.  I thought it was going to decline after Armada, but it's the complete opposite.

 

The X-Wing is better than Imperial Assault's skirmish because the fact is X-Wing is much more customizable.  Now, I think Imperial Assault is still a better game in the whole, but when it comes to customization - it doesn't compare.  Should I or should I not put an Engine Upgrade on Vader?  Do I spend the points to load my Z-95 Headhunters with Assault Missiles or would it be better to have more Z-95s just firing their primary weapons?  I got 2 crew member slots on my Falcon: do I put in Gunner, Tactician, Recon Specialist, etc?  Holy crap I can put 2 bombs, 2 torpedos, and 2 missiles on my TIE Punisher - do I spend the points to load it up or do I get another ship?

 

We don't really have this kind of customization in IA.  We do have Command Cards, which is awesome, but if you want to make Imperial Assault's skirmish better than we need more and better skirmish upgrades.

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X-Wing is a fantastic game, and the energy level is very high with it even though it's about 5 years old.

 

How quickly they grow up these days. X-Wing was released in September 2012, three and half year ago.

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I think that VanorDM nailed. X-Wing is one of a kind (except for Attack Wing that took the mecanic from X-Wing) while Imperial Assault is more generic. It doesn't mean that it's a bad game, it's a very good one, but it might go under the radar more easily when seen being played in a FLGS. And looking at the box, it's more advertised as being a mission based game a la Descent with a skirmish game tacked on, than being a competitive 1vs1 game.

 

As for my taste, I prefer X-Wing for a couple of reasons. 

 

-The movement mecanic is simply brilliant. You can't go everywhere you want, you are limited by the maneuvers available to each ship. A little bit like chess where the Knight can only move this way and the tower that way, but with far more option for each ship. The fact that both players need to set their maneuver before the first ship move, and that there is a particular order (Pilot Skill) in which they will move, require the players to have a good vision of where they have to go and guess what they're opponent is planning. Since there is no stationary move (except for 2 ship, but they can't easily pull it 2 turn in a row), you can't camp with one ship, there is a sense of speed, of constant movement, a need to move. Every planning phase, you have to commit for the entire round. And there is no grid, you can't be 100% sure that the move you picked will put you exactly where you to, and that there won't be an enemy ship in your way when it will be your time to move.

 

-High level of customization. When building your squad, you just don't pick units, you also pick upgrade for most of them. But you're also limited to what you can actually equip them with. There is some awesome synergy to be found and made. And bringing an X-Wing is not just bringing an X-Wing, but which pilot too, and with which upgrades, which Astromech, if any. In Imperial Assault, if you bring Luke, you bring Luke.

 

-There is no downtime. You're always invested. Pretty much the only time when there might be some analysis paralysis is during the planning phase when one player might takes more time to plan his moves. But while he's doing so, you're doing exactly the same thing, planning ahead. And then you second guess yourself. But what if? Will he really do that? Did he think about it? But once the planning phase is over, it goes really fast, and even though it's not your ship moving, you'll be as invested in your opponent move, just to see if you guessed correctly or if you're screwed. And then come the attack phase where you start rolling dice to attack or defend yourself. Still pretty fast and you're commited the whole time. That's the game with the least downtime that I played, you're invested the whole time. And that's great.

 

-The gambling aspect. Seriously. You are always gambling in X-Wing. As I said in the movement part, you must commit during the planning phase, there is no turning back. You must be able to have a good read of your opponent. What will he do, where will he go? Did he fell for my trap or not? Will he take the bait? Then there's the action choice, should I avoid the arc but deny myself a target, or stay there but risk getting blown out? Will my ship be able to destroy it before it can shoot back? Should I Focus or Evade? Then come the attack and my god, should I spend my focus token on attack or will I need it later to defend? Will I actually roll a Focus on my subsequent rolls this turn? Gambling. Gambling all the time, taking calculated risk, and trying to get the more odds in your favor.

 

...

 

So, to answer the OP question. No. I don't think IA would have been more popular if it was release before X-Wing. Except being 2 Star Wars game, they have nothing in common. It's a great game, but it has trouble finding its place in a great library of skirmish game. Gameplay is good, but I know I would not have bought the game if it was not Star Wars. I would not buy into a Decent Skirmish game. 

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I was having this conversation at my LGS yesterday and he was telling me that for our area at least, there has been next to zero influence for Skirmish and X-Wing is just massive.  He said that right out of the gate X-Wing was popular and selling out fast, where as IA has just seen infrequent big box purchases and even less blister packs.  Almost getting to the point where they are thinking of stocking it as a request to order only.  They have a kit from last fall that they tried to host and not one person showed up besides the TO.  X-Wing on the other hand has a very healthy league with a lot (I didn't get exact number) of people already signed up for the SC.  

 

He had said something about how the people he talk to look at the game and are like Well why would I invest so much into this game when my buddy already has everything to play the campaign?  So I would spend so much to buy a core box and all these big box expansions for a side of the game that I don't need because my friend already has it?

 

This is a good point and is the major thing holding it back from growing in my area.  He's had multiple groups who play the campaign say, if there was a smaller Skirmish only version to get into the game they would play it, but they don't want to drop $150 Canadian on a box just to get started that they won't ever use half of again.  It would be just awesome if FFG could come out with a Skirmish starter pack like X-Wing has and even better for us who already play because we could finally add multiples of the big box units without having to buy the actual box.

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A skirmish starter pack could be good... But the problem is, other than the campaign book, what else could you cut from the box to bring the price down?

You need the 4 heroes and all other models that don't have expansion packs. You need all the tiles, the rules, I'd dare say pretty much all the tokens.

So you could cut what? The hero cards, campaign book, story mission cards. That all would drop the price by maybe $10 or so.

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A skirmish starter pack could be good... But the problem is, other than the campaign book, what else could you cut from the box to bring the price down?

You need the 4 heroes and all other models that don't have expansion packs. You need all the tiles, the rules, I'd dare say pretty much all the tokens.

So you could cut what? The hero cards, campaign book, story mission cards. That all would drop the price by maybe $10 or so.

 

Because of this I think a skirmish starter is a bad idea.  I think an expansion just adding more of the generic figures with extra cards would be much better received. 

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A skirmish starter pack could be good... But the problem is, other than the campaign book, what else could you cut from the box to bring the price down?

You need the 4 heroes and all other models that don't have expansion packs. You need all the tiles, the rules, I'd dare say pretty much all the tokens.

So you could cut what? The hero cards, campaign book, story mission cards. That all would drop the price by maybe $10 or so.

 

Because of this I think a skirmish starter is a bad idea.  I think an expansion just adding more of the generic figures with extra cards would be much better received. 

 

 

If they did this, I'd be tempted to get into IA for Skirmish.  As it is, the campaign game focus with skirmish bolted on makes buying into it specifically for skirmish feel like an expensive mess. 

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In my area at least, IA is pretty low key.  The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist.  Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

 

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere.  Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing :(

oy. don't you go bailing on me now!

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There are some very valid points here, IA is really expensive if you want to pllay it. With X-wing, you can buy the starter box and  possibly just 2-3 blisters and be ready to play in tournaments.
If you want to play in tournaments in IA, you have to buy the core box (Tiles), Twin Shadows (Tiles and mission), Return to Hoth (tiles) and the Stormtrooper expansios pack. That is a lot to buy just to participate in tournaments. 

 

On the other hand, I dont agree that X-wing is more customizable.
In X-Wing there is very little diffenrence between Luke and a normal Red Squadron pilot, Luke has a special ability and more PS but the stats of both ships are exactly the same. You alsmost always have to choose between few upgraded ships or many unupgraded ships, there is very little in between.
In IA you have both big variety in deploymnet cards, and even some big diffrences between elite and regulars. But the best thing is the command deck having a seperate point limit. Hopw many times do you see 15 upgrade cards in X-wing, because that is exactly what they are, upgrades cards for your force that personalise it.
This is something I would love to see in X-wing, 100pts ships and 15 pts of upgrade cards. that would be customizable.
 

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There are some very valid points here, IA is really expensive if you want to pllay it. With X-wing, you can buy the starter box and  possibly just 2-3 blisters and be ready to play in tournaments.

If you want to play in tournaments in IA, you have to buy the core box (Tiles), Twin Shadows (Tiles and mission), Return to Hoth (tiles) and the Stormtrooper expansios pack. That is a lot to buy just to participate in tournaments. 

 

On the other hand, I dont agree that X-wing is more customizable.

In X-Wing there is very little diffenrence between Luke and a normal Red Squadron pilot, Luke has a special ability and more PS but the stats of both ships are exactly the same. You alsmost always have to choose between few upgraded ships or many unupgraded ships, there is very little in between.

In IA you have both big variety in deploymnet cards, and even some big diffrences between elite and regulars. But the best thing is the command deck having a seperate point limit. Hopw many times do you see 15 upgrade cards in X-wing, because that is exactly what they are, upgrades cards for your force that personalise it.

This is something I would love to see in X-wing, 100pts ships and 15 pts of upgrade cards. that would be customizable.

 

To be fair, I think that X-Wing is as expensive. You can technically go in a tournament with just the core set and 2-3 blisters, but I doubt that you will go very far. But then again, since you just bought that, it's probably your first tournament so you should not expect to win big anyway. When a new player ask me how much it cost, I tell them that with 150$/200$(CAN) they can make themselves a good competitive build. As for IA, I didn't knew that RtH and the Stormtrooper pack was necessary. But I don't play that game competitively so I'm not up to date on what's required.

 

As for the customization, that depends on how you look at it. You might see it as only a very little difference, but the pilot ability and PS is very important in X-Wing; you won't build an X-Wing the same way if it is Wedge instead of Biggs, or only a Generic. But that's not where it stops. Let's take the rebels for exemple, you have 100 pts. First part is choosing ships, you currently have 13 differents ships. Next you have to decide who will be the pilots, except for the A (6), B (6), X (10) and T-70 (6), each ship have 4 pilots. Then you have to equip them, if you want to. Each ship have different possible upgrade slots, with plenty of choice for each of them: Elite Pilot Talent, Astromech, Ordnance, Crew, Cannon, Modification, Turret, Titles, etc... That is a LOT to choose from.

 

If we were to compare with Imperial Assault, always with rebels:

 

-You choose your ships (13) or your Deployments (22)

-You choose your pilots (4+ for each ships) or if it is Elite or Regular ( Mostly only 1 choice except for the 5 generic)

-You then choose upgrades for your ship or build your command deck.

 

Both games are highly customizable, it just depends what you're looking for. X-Wing is customizable per ship: You don't just take Han, you take Han with a Talent, a title, some crew, a modification. There is some archetype, but the choice is yours on how you want to build him. In Imperial Assault, you take Han (well, not really but that's for another discussion) and that's pretty much it, except maybe an attachment. But including the Command deck, your Imperial Assault team as a whole is highly customizable.

 

So, X-Wing is highly customizable per unit and as a group (if someone think that X-Wing is not customizable, I suggest he takes some times looking at this site where people post tournament results: http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourneys).

Imperial Assault is highly customizable as a group.

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In X-Wing there is very little diffenrence between Luke and a normal Red Squadron pilot

You clearly don't play X-Wing then. Luke is a lot more survivable than a Red Squadron pilot.

 

To be fair, I think that X-Wing is as expensive. You can technically go in a tournament with just the core set and 2-3 blisters, but I doubt that you will go very far.

BBBBZ is still a very effective list in X-Wing and still sees a fair amount of table time, would see more but there's some really cool new ships out there right now.

Edit: But yes X-Wing isn't cheap a lot of lists cost a fair amount of money, although it's not like you can only use those upgrades once or anything. Compared to a lot of other games X-Wing is quite cheap, compared to some other hobbies X-Wing is dirt cheap.

Edited by VanorDM

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We had a guy show up at this weekends SC at my LGS just to try it out, and ended up taking 2nd out of 6. So he was thinking of going to regionals because he had fun.
 
One of the regulars there is his cousin, and he plays the campaign with him.  The regular is the imperial player, the other guy owned nothing.  So he got set up with some spare stuff, had to borrow some of mine, and didn't even have dice.
 
All that was fine, because everyone there was cool and quite happy to share dice and the like.  
 
But when we were discussing what it would take to go to regionals he was basically told he'd have to spend $215 at a minimum to play.   That of course doesn't include any A&V packs he may want to use.  
 
Telling someone it's going to be over $200 for the bare minimums is going to be a pretty big detriment to getting more people to play the skirmish game.

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To be fair, I think that X-Wing is as expensive. You can technically go in a tournament with just the core set and 2-3 blisters, but I doubt that you will go very far.

BBBBZ is still a very effective list in X-Wing and still sees a fair amount of table time, would see more but there's some really cool new ships out there right now.

Edit: But yes X-Wing isn't cheap a lot of lists cost a fair amount of money, although it's not like you can only use those upgrades once or anything. Compared to a lot of other games X-Wing is quite cheap, compared to some other hobbies X-Wing is dirt cheap.

 

 

BBBBZ is actually the exemple I like to give for a team that is competitive and doesn't cost too much. But if you buy exclusively to play this group, you won't have a lot of customization and will be pretty much stuck playing only that. That's why I like to say that to start playing competitively, a player should expect to pay around 150/200$. It should give him enough to explore and find his playstyle, then expend accordingly. Not everyone like to play a pure jousting list like BBBBZ.

 

For Imperial Assault, the competitive lowest buying price is higher, but you will have so much more possibility. What is hurting the game is the map rotation. Currently (April 1st) forcing the player to buy a Stormtrooper pack when they already have 3 group coming in the Core Set is a little dirty. I have no use for a 4th group, but if I was to play competitively, I would have to buy it anyway... great... at least X-Wing doesn't force you to buy a Scyk to play competitively.

 

 

 

In X-Wing there is very little diffenrence between Luke and a normal Red Squadron pilot

You clearly don't play X-Wing then. Luke is a lot more survivable than a Red Squadron pilot.

 

 

I'll admit that I chuckled a little bit when I read that part, especially since a little bit later, he says:

 

 

In IA you have both big variety in deploymnet cards, and even some big diffrences between elite and regulars. 

 

To each their own I guess.

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