Checking Attack Range and being Arc line blocked

[Lyraeus 4,759]

As we know there are 3 checks to do when you shoot at a ship.

The first is checking Arc because that will tell you if you can target the hull zone you want or not. It will also determine where to measure for the third step.

The second is checking Line of Sight from little yellow dot to the targets little yellow dot.

The third is checking Range from the closest point of your arc to your opponents closest point in the arc you are targeting (this is what my question will be about in a bit).

If in steps 2 and 3 you cross an Arc Line you can't make a legal attack.

Here is the issue I thought up.

For the Nebulon-B, MC80 and the MC30, you have Arc lines that are against the corners of the base plates. This could cause an attack to either of 2 arcs to not be able to attack.

If you angle one of the previously mentioned ships so that the closest point of their arc is that corner, when your opponent goes to measure attack range it will cross the line and thus no longer be a valid attack against either side.

Now this won't happen in casual play but I can see some person at a regional level or higher using this loop hole.

I don't have access to Vassal or to my base plates right now so if someone could put this up in a picture format I would appreciate that.

[daveddo 160]

Why would step 3 make an illegal attack if the arc happens to cross an arc line on the targetted ship?

[daveddo 160]

The only thing you should have to worry about crossing an enemy ship's hull zone line is Line of Sight. If the breadth of your firing arc catches the intended target hull zone somehow, then you have arc.

Edited February 23, 2016 by daveddo

[Lyraeus 4,759]

An arc line counts as both hull zones. This is why you are not allowed to cross it. If the closest point passes through the defenders arc line you don't have a legal shot per the current range measuring rules (I am an advocate of changing this rule so that it is based on what your arc can see as the attacker and not closest point)

Ah the rule I am referencing is in the FAQ.

Measuring Firing Arc and Range, p.7

This entry should include the following paragraph:

“If attack range is measured through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”

Edited February 23, 2016 by Lyraeus

[daveddo 160]

An arc line counts as both hull zones. This is why you are not allowed to cross it. If the closest point passes through the defenders arc line you don't have a legal shot per the current range measuring rules (I am an advocate of changing this rule so that it is based on what your arc can see as the attacker and not closest point)

Ah the rule I am referencing is in the FAQ.

Measuring Firing Arc and Range, p.7

This entry should include the following paragraph:

“If attack range is measured through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”

But attack range is measured from the closest point of the hull zone, inside arc, to the closest point of the defending hull zone. This means that you measure from the closest point of the base of the attacking hull zone to the closest point of the defending hull zone, which is usually the point where the hull zone line hits the edge of the cardboard. Because of this, there should physically be no point where you measure range and it actually crosses an enemy hull zone where it wouldn't also be simultaneously blocking line of sight.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

An arc line counts as both hull zones. This is why you are not allowed to cross it. If the closest point passes through the defenders arc line you don't have a legal shot per the current range measuring rules (I am an advocate of changing this rule so that it is based on what your arc can see as the attacker and not closest point)

Ah the rule I am referencing is in the FAQ.

Measuring Firing Arc and Range, p.7

This entry should include the following paragraph:

“If attack range is measured through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.”

But attack range is measured from the closest point of the hull zone, inside arc, to the closest point of the defending hull zone. This means that you measure from the closest point of the base of the attacking hull zone to the closest point of the defending hull zone, which is usually the point where the hull zone line hits the edge of the cardboard. Because of this, there should physically be no point where you measure range and it actually crosses an enemy hull zone where it wouldn't also be simultaneously blocking line of sight.

Not always. It all depends on the angle. 9 out of 10 times you will have a point slightly before or after the arc line. However I was able to set the situation up at my last SC but I did not fight it when the TO ruled against it.

However at a regionals, Nationals, or Worlds where much more is on the line. . . People can exploit this.

[daveddo 160]

I'm going to need a picture before further discussion.

[Armada Jim 298]

The way I've interpreted it is that the "Firing Arc" heading on pg 6 states: "A firing arc includes the width of the firing arc lines that border it," so if you're hitting that corner dead on, it's legal to hit either arc because the only thing that a shooter has to worry about is hitting where the black part of the other arc touches that outside border. I'll try to mock this up below.

 

 

                                          A                B              C

                                                        |xxxxx|

                                                        |xxxxx|

                                  Front             |xxxxx|     Side

                                                        |xxxxx|

 

Above we have three lines of attack range (A,B,C) coming in towards an exaggeratedly large firing arc line. Here's how they all interact:

 

A fires at front, or C fires at side: No problem, easy-peasy.

 

A fires at side: No attack. The line of attack range hits the closer | line that borders the front arc (since pg 6 also states that firing arc lines are infinite), since the front arc includes that left side of the arc line and all the x's inside it, by definition it is crossing the front hull zone to get to the side arc. Another way to look at it is that since the side arc includes the right line and all the x's inside, but not the left line bordering the front hull zone, and A's line of attack range touches that left line, it is hitting the front arc first, and therefore can't take the shot.

 

C fires at front: No attack, same as above, just reversed.

 

B fires at either arc: Attack allowed. B is sitting right at the apex of the corner, and if it fires at the front, the front arc includes every part of the arc line EXCEPT that tiny line that divides the black part of the side zone from the glowing arc line. So since it's hitting the X's, all of that is part of the width of the front arc, and the shot is allowed. If B fires at the side, those X's are ALSO owned by the side arc, and since B isn't going across the left side line to draw its attack arc line, B can also attack the side.

 

Did that help at all?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Armada Jim

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Here are examples

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

Ok I'm confused. This seems to be pretty clear cut, no?

The ISD can shoot at either arc with its front

The smaller ships are double arced on the front of the ISD.

I just can't imagine any TO not calling it this way.

[daveddo 160]

If the attack is coming from the ISD then these are all legal attacks. Like i said earlier, the rule seems to be redundant because the only time the line of an attack arc must be drawn through another arc on the defending ship is if that arc is also simultaneously blocking line of sight.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

Lyraeus is talking about a dispute (between friends) we recently had at the local Store Championship. (He wiped the floor with me, and robbed me of the no.1 position, so the ruling of the TO in my favor did not throw the match in one way or the other.)

 

We disagree on this one, but normally Lyraeus is really good about rules. His first picture captures the situation pretty well.

 

The argument he is making about the arc line beyond the cardboard of the base plate. He is arguing (I think) that if the line of sight (LOS) crosses the defending ship's arc line - beyond the base plate - that the attack cannot take place. However, as I read the rule, (4th bullet under Line of Sight on pg. 7 of the RRG), it is about the hull zone, which is the arc on the base place. To wit:

 

If line of sight is traced through a hull zone on the
defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does
not have line of sight and must choose another target

 

But in the case in question the LOS line can be drawn directly from the attacking zone's yellow dot to the defending zone's yellow dot, without crossing another hull zone of the defending ship. Given that the attack is also in range and in the attacker's arc of fire, the attack is legal.

 

I don't understand where his range argument comes from, because range is from closest point of attacking arc to closest point of defending arc, not closest point of attacking base plate to closest point of defending base plate.

 

But he can probably explain his rationale better than I can (because I disagree).
 

[Lyraeus 4,759]

If the attack is coming from the ISD then these are all legal attacks. Like i said earlier, the rule seems to be redundant because the only time the line of an attack arc must be drawn through another arc on the defending ship is if that arc is also simultaneously blocking line of sight.

Read the rule. You measure closest point closest point. IF that line would cross an Arc you can't shoot. As per the FAQ.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Lyraeus is talking about a dispute (between friends) we recently had at the local Store Championship. (He wiped the floor with me, and robbed me of the no.1 position, so the ruling of the TO in my favor did not throw the match in one way or the other.)

 

We disagree on this one, but normally Lyraeus is really good about rules. His first picture captures the situation pretty well.

 

The argument he is making about the arc line beyond the cardboard of the base plate. He is arguing (I think) that if the line of sight (LOS) crosses the defending ship's arc line - beyond the base plate - that the attack cannot take place. However, as I read the rule, (4th bullet under Line of Sight on pg. 7 of the RRG), it is about the hull zone, which is the arc on the base place. To wit:

 

If line of sight is traced through a hull zone on the

defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does

not have line of sight and must choose another target

 

But in the case in question the LOS line can be drawn directly from the attacking zone's yellow dot to the defending zone's yellow dot, without crossing another hull zone of the defending ship. Given that the attack is also in range and in the attacker's arc of fire, the attack is legal.

 

I don't understand where his range argument comes from, because range is from closest point of attacking arc to closest point of defending arc, not closest point of attacking base plate to closest point of defending base plate.

 

But he can probably explain his rationale better than I can (because I disagree).

See the issue is that you are neglecting the FAQ. You are going by the rules reference guide which is fine but the FAQ updated that.

The issue stems from the fact that the arc line is apart of both hull zones. So if you touch it you are crossing a non defending hull zone.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Let's put my first pictures into context, the ISD is attacking one of those 3 ships. As you can easily tell it has line of sight, it is in range, HOWEVER, when we measure Attack Range which is the closest point of the attacking arc to the closest point of EITHER of the possible defending arcs, you cross an Arc Line thus making it an invalid attack.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Lyraeus

[Pilot no55389 120]

FAQ, pg2

If attack range is measured through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.

However:

Rules Reference, Firing Arc, pg6

A firing arc includes the width of the firing arc lines that

border it.

A firing arc line is simultaneously the defending hull zone and an adjacent hull zone.

You're not measuring range through a firing arc line, you're measuring to it for range, meaning that the attack is valid.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Lyraeus

[clontroper5 4,233]

This thread tells me we need wave 3 news to talk about....

[DerErlkoenig 975]

If you are looking at front ISD arc to side Neb arc, it's very close, but I think it lands just to the illegal shot side of things.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

If the rationale that if the closest point is the line, and the line is simultaneously both hull zones, and therefore an illegal shot, I think you're grasping at straws for your point.

But to play along, how do we know that the line is both hull zones simultaneously, rather than neither?

If you are looking at front ISD arc to side Neb arc, it's very close, but I think it lands just to the illegal shot side of things.

No, he's saying that the front to front is illegal.

This thread tells me we need wave 3 news to talk about....

I think you need to be fair. If what Lyraeus - who frequently has a decent grasp of the rules - is saying is true, then that has pretty huge implications. I am just continuing to be confused by his point, because it makes no sense to me. Edited February 24, 2016 by Mikael Hasselstein

[DerErlkoenig 975]

If the rationale that if the closest point is the line, and the line is simultaneously both hull zones, and therefore an illegal shot, I think you're grasping at straws for your point.

But to play along, how do we know that the line is both hull zones simultaneously, rather than neither?

If you are looking at front ISD arc to side Neb arc, it's very close, but I think it lands just to the illegal shot side of things.

No, he's saying that the front to front is illegal.

In that case, it looks pretty legal to me.

I believe that something in the rules said that measurements "on the line" were within range. I think it was referring to the lines between each range increment on the ruler, but it would logically seem to apply here, too. If the measurement takes you right to the line, then I'd think the shot would be legal.

[Pilot no55389 120]

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

 

You aren't measuring past to the black, however, you are measuring to the very first available molecule of that hull zone, which in this case is the firing arc line.

 

And the term through changes this not a jot: moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).

[Green Knight 9,746]

But are you really going THROUGH another zone?

 

When the line is part of BOTH zones? 

 

Logic would seem to indicate it's a legal shot, but this is armada, so go ahead and e-mail FFG.

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

To me this is a "margin of error" situation. In real life the ISD has shots. In my opinion the range line does NOT go through another hull zone.

Now what I would like to know is when in the heck would you have firing arc and LOS clear but NOT range (as it goes through a hull zone).

[daveddo 160]

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

If what you are saying is true then there really is no universe in which two ships can shoot at each other's side arcs, because the range measurement of closest point to closest point of any two ships trying to shoot each others' sides is going to be touching the arc line of the defending ship unless they are absolutely perfectly parallel. And if someone claims they are parallel, you better bust out the protractors because if they are offset by more than 0.0 degrees then the attack is invalid. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by daveddo