Han Solo - 'Return Fire' Question

[bajtaur 0]

My group had a bit of a debate about the interaction of the Trandoshan Hunter's "Relentless" ability and Han Solo's "Return Fire".

 

"Return Fire":

After an attack targeting you is resolved, if you did not suffer any (damage), you can interrupt to perform an attack targeting that attacker. Limit once per round.

 

"Relentless":

When you declare an attack targeting a figure within 3 spaces, that figure suffers 1 (stress)

 

 

Scenario:

If the Trandoshan Hunter declares an attack within 3 spaces Han Solo suffers '1 Stress' (immediately converted to '1 damage' since he isn't a hero) due to "Relentless". If the Trandoshan Hunter then fails to deal further damage (in this case it was mitigated, could also be a 'dodge'), does "Return Fire" activate?

 

Musings:

The wording of "Return Fire" is sufficiently vague to leave open the possibility of a source of damage other than the attack itself preventing activation of the ability. However, we were unclear on whether the timing period for 'Return Fire' began with the declaration of the attack, resulting in no activation of "Return Fire", or with the first die roll, resulting in the activation of "Return Fire" 

 

PS:

And... I just re-read the reference manual. Target Declaration is included as the first step in an attack resolution. This seems to suggest "Return Fire" would not activate. I'm posting this anyhow for feedback. 

 

*Edited for typos*

Edited February 21, 2016 by bajtaur

[Norgrath 382]

I would argue that the damage is not dealt by an attack but by a separate ability triggered during the attack.

 

There are a bunch of other situations where this (as in the example here, not damage being dealt by an ability triggered during the attack) would apply (a lot of them involve heroes but just assume they're on max strain).

 

• Trandoshan Hunter's bleed ability
• Stunning from either Arc Blasters (I think that's what it's called) or the Imperial Industry reward card.
• Garkhaan's Rage
• Diala's Defensive Stance
• Deflection

Edited February 21, 2016 by Norgrath

[a1bert 4,115]

Only damage from the step 7 of the attack counts for damage suffered from the attack. Relentless happens well before that and is a separate ability from the attack performed.

 

(The strain received from Relentless does not count as damage suffered from the attack.)

 

Edit: doubting my interpretation.

Edited March 1, 2016 by a1bert

[Fizz 986]

I would also agree that the damage from relentless is not part of the attack, since it happens before you roll attack dice.

[bajtaur 0]

Fizz, A1bert and Norgath,

I wholeheartedly agree that "Relentless" wouldn't count as damage caused by the attack.

 

The point of argument among my group was that "Return Fire" doesn't specify that the damage has to come from the attack, simply that it had to occur during the attack.

 

It comes down to whether the clause "... if you did not suffer any (damage), ..." should be interpreted literally, or instead should be interpreted as "... if you did not suffer any (damage) from the attack, ..."

 

My re-reading of the reference guide would place "Declaring the Target" after the start of the "Attack"

Edited February 21, 2016 by bajtaur

[a1bert 4,115]

If they want to rules-lawyer you, ... well.

 

Really, Relentless does not count as suffering damage during the attack. It does not count for Gaarkhan's Rage, it does not count for Return Fire. It is an ability that triggers outside of the attack, it just happens to have a trigger that concides with the declare target step of an attack. Even if you argue that it isn't, having simultaneous triggers means that the attacker can decide in which order to resolve them, and resolving Relentless first would mean it happened before the attack. (Mission rules first, then abilities.)

Edited February 22, 2016 by a1bert

[Norgrath 382]

It comes down to whether the clause "... if you did not suffer any (damage), ..." should be interpreted literally, or instead should be interpreted as "... if you did not suffer any (damage) from the attack, ..."

Drawing the line beyond "from the attack" but before "during the attack" is arbitrary and nonsensical and, since the statement obviously has to have some clause associated with it, we kind of need to assume that it's from.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Norgrath

[jacenat 507]

If they want to rules-lawyer you, ... well.

 

Really, Relentless does not count as suffering damage during the attack. It does not count for Gaarkhan's Rage, it does not count for Return Fire. It is an ability that triggers outside of the attack, it just happens to have a trigger that concides with the declare target step of an attack. Even if you argue that it isn't, having simultaneous triggers means that the attacker can decide in which order to resolve them, and resolving Relentless first would mean it happened before the attack.

 

Have you asked Paul this? Because for me (and we played it like this all the time), Relentless absolutely is damage suffered during an attack. This includes Arc Blasters, Gaarkahn's Rage and many others. This is actually the prime reason to select certain targets with the Hunters and makes them viable late campaign over eStormtroopers.

[a1bert 4,115]

I haven't asked, just how I have interpreted it. But noticing now that core rules are considered mission rules for timing purposes makes me doubt my interpretation.

 

You learn new things all the time it seems.

Edited February 22, 2016 by a1bert

[jacenat 507]

I haven't asked, just how I have interpreted it. But noticing now that core rules are considered mission rules for timing purposes makes me doubt my interpretation.

 

You learn new things all the time it seems.

 

Sooo ... are you sending the email or should I?

[Fizz 986]

Someone should, and then PM me the feedback so I can add it to the FAQ post.

[jacenat 507]

I sent the question in. PM will come your way when I get the clarification answer Fizz.

[Fizz 986]

Thanks much. PM's help since I get an email notification.

[jacenat 507]

Word from our Lord and Saviour Paul:

 

 

Hi Stephan,

 

No, it doesn’t. Whenever an ability checks for X damage after an attack resolves, that ability only checks the damage suffered during Step 7 of that attack. Relentless is an ability that resolves outside of the attack, even though its trigger is the attack itself.

 

Thanks!

Paul Winchester

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

So I got struck by higher powers. But at least we have some clearance now.

[a1bert 4,115]

Phew. My worldview is saved again.