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ElizLestrad

Celestian and Seraphim in 2nd Edition

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In lieu of not finding anything official on this, and with the butchered new class system, I am hoping someone here can provide some advice.

 

I was disappointed to find Enemies Within sadly lacking in options for the Sisters due to the screwed up new class system, and not just by making Battle Sister an elite advance instead of the base class it was.  To that end I am debating if it would even be possible (according to FFG it is) to convert Seraphim and Celestian to Elite Advances as an alternative to Sister of Battle. Ugh, why did they have to go and screw up the class/rank system ><.

 

Seraphim
Cost: N/A

Requirement: Battle Sister - Rank 5

Stat Requirement: BS 35, WS 35, Ambidextrous

Talent: Hit and Run

Effects: You gain the Pilot (Jump Pack) skill.

Equipment: Pair of Seraphim Hand Flamers or Seraphim Inferno Pistols (rank 7)

 

Celestian
Cost: N/A

Requirement: Battle Sister - Rank 5

Stat Requirement: WS 35, BS, 30, Hatred (any two)
Talent: Holy Hatred

Effects: You gain Holy Hatred talent
Equipment: May requisition inferno pistol at Rank 6.

 

 

I'm starting to really regret switching over to second edition...

Edited by ElizLestrad

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I love the current system for character creation/progression myself; it's more flexible.  I also wouldn't consider it a class system (but then, I don't like class-based systems).  The Ranks were too rigid in my mind, and I definitely did not enjoy the railroaded character creation.  Making Adeptus Sororitas a Background makes more sense, as not only are there militant sisters, there's linguists, doctors, advisors and a bunch of other roles.  Just having a Sister of Battle 'base class' makes you either skip the non-militant ones, or have to create another class just for them.  Until you pick up the Advance, you're just not fully initiated into the Sisters of Battle, probably serving as a page/in training.  

 

But...  Why make them Elite Advances at all?  If you're a Sister of Battle, complete with the Elite Advance, and have the talents/training to be a Seraphim or Celestian, it sort of makes me think you would be one.  A Seraphim is a Sister of Battle who has been trained in the use of jump-packs and shock tactics, not a completely different branch, just as a Celestian is an experienced form of a Sister of Battle.  No need to make it a cost-free Elite Advance or anything like that.  Especially since it doesn't list the plain requirements to be a normal Sister of Battle, much less an advanced one.  

 

If finding what rank your characters are at is a problem, I suggest figuring out a good level to assign ranks at.  ___ is your regular Sister of Battle, ___ is your Sister Superior, ___ is your Celestian, ___ is your Canoness.  Your Seraphims and Retributors and such aren't specialized ranks, they're just duties.  Think of it like the real-world military; Your Rifleman (Sister of Battle) and Machine-Gunner (Dominion) are both lance corporals, while a Sister Superior is the sergeant.  

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Ironically, the issue is not with the ranks.  The problem lies with the fact that they consider the Adeptus Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle as two separate entities. Because of Sister of Battle suddenly becoming an elite advance and not the base class it should be, the stat requirements don't add up.  Because 1st Edition Sisters were a base class and did not have minimum stat requirements, there is no way to create a plausible ratio to compare the fact that these are elite Sisters, not your run of the mill units.

 

Example:

 

Seraphim

Stat Requirement: BS 35, WS 35, Ambidextrous

 

Celestian
Cost: N/A

Stat Requirement: WS 35, BS, 30, Hatred (any two)

 

Hospitaller
Cost: N/A

Stat requirement: WP 30, Fel 30

 

Compared to

 

Sister of Battle
Cost: 750 xp

Stat Requirement: Influence 50, Willpower 40 (the heck?!)

 

 

And THAT is the problem.  The stats are way out of wack.  Honestly, I'm starting to feel that it would be simpler just to use the 1st edition sisters with the 2nd edition skills/talents because having a Sister of Battle that isn't a Sister of Battle makes no sense.

 

 

My best guess would be:

 

Seraphim

Cost: 800 xp

Stat Requirement: Influence 50, Willpower 40, WS 40, BS 35, Ambidextrous

Special Talent: Hit and Run
Special Skill: gain Pilot (Jump Pack) immediately

 

Celestian

Cost: 850 xp

Stat Requirement: Influence 55, Willpower 50, WS 40,  BS 40,  Hatred (Any Two)

Special Talent: Holy Hatred

 

Hospitaller

Cost: 700 xp

Stat Requirement: Influence 50, Willpower 40, Fellowship 40

 

Palatine (Battle Sister Elite Class - Ascension Supplement)
Cost: 900 xp

Stat Requirement: Influence 60, Willpower 55, WS 45, BS 45

Special Talent: Favored of the Emperor, and (choose 1) Miracle Worker or Heroine of the Order.

 

Sister Repentias
Cost: None - Mandatory
Required Career: Sister of Battle, Seraphim, Celestian, Palatine, Hospitaller
Stat Requirement: 50 corruption points
Special Talent: Only In Death

Edited by ElizLestrad

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But the Adepta Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle are in fact two different things - the former is an organization with broad scope, while the latter is a more narrow militant order within that. It's like the difference between being a member of a nation's armed forces and actually being a soldier - there's a lot of unglamorous logistics and whatnot that goes into propping up a military and keeping it running. This isn't some new thing introduced just by Dark Heresy 1E, but also apparently showed up in White Dwarf and some novels. (DH1E even has two entirely separate careers for Adepta Sororitas vs. Battle Sister, in two different books.) Most of what we end up seeing is from the Sisters of Battle, but that's because 40K is based on a wargame. Units in such are expected to be soldiers, because why else should people buy them to use in armies?

 

As for these elite advances you're proposing, what do these do that's meaningfully distinct from writing up a talent or two with certain prerequisites? Before the changes that Black Crusade bought, I can understand that elite advances were there to offer PCs the ability to purchase stuff that wasn't on their limited advancement charts. In theory you could get permission from the GM to do just about anything, but the guidelines on such basically amounted to "make up an appropriate price, and it can't be cheap". The same was true for alternate character ranks; most had little or zero truly new abilities, but instead just allowed you to buy stuff that the old restrictive systems walled off from your particular class. But with the post-BC changes that make character generation and advancement more freeform, there's less need to set up ways for people to buy things they wouldn't otherwise have access to. When character access is already fairly open, why reinvent the wheel if it's not meaningful? (Edit: Elite Advances can still be warranted if there are a bunch of things behind it either as the time of purchase or available later, as in the case of the existing ones for DH2E. I'm just not sold on those that do so little.)

 

And if you're concerned about having a one-to-one model between DH1E and DH2E, that's not necessary. Dark Heresy 2nd Edition isn't trying to model the 1st Edition directly; instead they're both trying to model some confounding factor/third variable in their own ways. It's the same reason that translation between languages shouldn't always be literal, but should instead seek the essence and intent of what was spoken.

Edited by NFK

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They are two distinct entities beneath one title as the others said, yes.  And your 'average' Sister of Battle shouldn't be 'run of the mill.'  They're all elite, power-armor wearing combat nuns.  They should all have a higher Willpower than average at least and as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, a full Sister of Battle better have some Influence.  

 

You should also look at the benefits of the Elite Advance if you're going to complain about the cost; Bolt Weapon Training, Peer (Sororitas), Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis), a pair of Extremely Rare items, access to the Sister of Battle talents (an entire tree) and the Willpower Aptitude.  An Aptitude is near priceless, while the other parts can cost between 500 and 1,200 experience depending on your focus.  Given combat-oriented characters with less aptitudes among the social and scholarly side are the most likely to pick up this Elite Advance, that's generally a great deal.  You don't need to make more Elite Advances after this one for the other Sisters of Battle; this one is plenty good and provides everything that is needed, while your specialists pick up the stuff they need to do their roles.  Dominion Sisters pick up Heavy Weapon training, Operate skills are important for Seraphim, etc.  If you want special talents for these roles, just throw them into the Sister of Battle Talent trees as 'picking this up (after meeting these requirements) makes you an official Seraphim, not just a Sister of Battle with a jump-pack.'  

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Ironically, the issue is not with the ranks.  The problem lies with the fact that they consider the Adeptus Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle as two separate entities. Because of Sister of Battle suddenly becoming an elite advance and not the base class it should be, the stat requirements don't add up.  Because 1st Edition Sisters were a base class and did not have minimum stat requirements, there is no way to create a plausible ratio to compare the fact that these are elite Sisters, not your run of the mill units.

 

But they are different things? The Sisters of Battle are a part of the Adeptus Sororitas, which in itself incorporates:

Orders Hospitaller, they're Nurses and Physicians.

Orders Militant, the Sisters of Battle.

Orders Dialogous, Scholars and philosophers.

Orders Famulous, Diplomates and Advisors.

 

 You've clearly read Blood of Martyrs quite extensively, so I don't know how this bit of key information has gone over your head. The Adepta Sororitas is more than the sum of its parts, but its most dynamic and kill-maim-burny part is the Sisters of Battle.

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Try reading the Codex: Adepta Sororitas (http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas.html).  Guess what's in there: Sisters of Battle (*gasp* shocker!).  They are the exact same thing/organization regardless of what order they are from.  Unless of course you can find me a Codex: Adepta Sororitas and a Codex: Sisters of Battle (from the same edition of 40k).

 

To add further to my point, in the words of Games Workshops Black Libary itself: "The Adepta Sororitas, also known as the Sisters of Battle"

(see Black Library link above)

 

My point was that if the idea was that the Adepta Sororitas was the recruit trying to get in, and the Sisters of Battle was that they finally got in. Then don't freaking call the base class Adepta Sororitas!  Make them an elite advance for Adeptus Ministorum/Ecclisarchy, at least that makes semi-logical (though very general) sense.  Or even more accurate lore wise, have the base class of Progena, as the Sisters recruit from the Schola Progenia.  That is my point.

 

Background: Progena
Elite Advance: Adepta Sororitas/Sister of Battle

 

While I'm at it I'll also quote:
 

Ranks of the Orders Militant

  • Celestian - ELITE Battle Sisters, they often form squads of bodyguards for Cannonesses and Palatines.
  • Seraphim - ONLY THE VERY BEST Battle Sisters are elevated to the rank of Seraphim and are generally organized into specialize squads. Seraphim receive special training and equipment, primarily jump packs.
  • Dominion - Standard battle sisters with special weapons.
  • Retributor - Standard battle sisters with heavy weapons.
  • Battle Sister - the BASIC rank of Adepta Sororitas.

 

Again, total shocker I know (unless you've read the codexes, read any of the Black Library books, etc)

 

Sarcasm aside, I've contacted FFG to get an official ruling on using Blood of Martyrs elite advances in 2nd edition.

Edited by ElizLestrad

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You really think they'll give you an official ruling to use previous edition's content for this one?  Rriigghhtt...  I'm not even touching how you said it.  

 

Claiming the table-top rulebook for the war-game (where it gives the stats for combatants, as it is a war-game) means every non-combat role filled by a person from the Adeptus Sororitas is a Sister of Battle is ludicrous.  Just because they're 'known' as the Sisters of Battle, doesn't mean they're all warriors.  Just because a person is in the army, doesn't make them infantry.  That's just the general perception, as the image of some hot blonde in power armor putting bolt-rounds into bad guys generally sticks better than nuns in scrubs or some lady going over century old tomes to translate an ancient dialect.  Like I said already, it's a war-game, so that is the facet that comes to the fore.  It is explicit that three out of four major sections of the Adeptus Sororitas consist of non-combat personnel (Hospitaller, Famulous, Dialogus).  There's also the Orders that act as missionaries and the ones that recover relics and artifacts.  This doesn't even cover the logistics.  

 

As far as a Schola Progenium background goes, do you really think Stormtroopers, Commissars and Adeptus Sororitas all get the same training?  It is pretty unlikely, in my opinion.  

 

You don't seem to comprehend that there are things besides full Sisters of Battle in the Adeptus Sororitas, despite it being repeated multiple times.  The basic Background represents just being in the Adeptus, whether as a linguist, doctor, seneschal or new warrior remains to be decided.  If you want to be a full Sister of Battle (which is near Space Marine in training and equipment, which is OUTSIDE the domain of character creation), you need to pick up the Elite Advance that says you've finally been inducted and gives you the equipment needed to be one.  If you want them to be a Seraphim or Celestian or any other kind of Sister?  Go spend some experience on the kinds of things you'll need until you qualify.  On top of that Dominion and Retributors, while listed on the Lexicanum as 'ranks,' are not ranks.  They're roles.  This is a rank: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sister_Superior 

A Sister Superior tells other Sisters what to do.  She's effectively a Sergeant.  

 

On top of that...  There are no classes.  The game does not use levels or classes anymore.  That's how it is.  Even if you want to make the comparison, your Background wouldn't even be your class, your ROLE is what decides the direction your character goes.  That's the closest thing to a class this game has.  

 

And why would a standard Sister in a non-combat role not be called a part of the Adeptus Sororitas?  What do you think they're called, nerd-nuns and nurse-nuns?  Do they not rate being called Sisters of the Adeptus Sororitas when they are a part of the order?  

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Just as an example of military personnel who are nevertheless in non-combat roles, take the US Navy's Hyman Rickover. Over his 60+ year career, he only served for perhaps a third of that holding an actual office on a ship (ie, a combat role). Instead most of his career was spent as the first Director of Naval Reactors, in a non-combat engineering-based role that was nevertheless extremely important for the US Navy. Ever wonder why a number of fleet carriers, large submarines, and icebreakers use nuclear propulsion? Credit Admiral Rickover for that.

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Ranks of the Orders Militant

  • Celestian - ELITE Battle Sisters, they often form squads of bodyguards for Cannonesses and Palatines.
  • Seraphim - ONLY THE VERY BEST Battle Sisters are elevated to the rank of Seraphim and are generally organized into specialize squads. Seraphim receive special training and equipment, primarily jump packs.
  • Dominion - Standard battle sisters with special weapons.
  • Retributor - Standard battle sisters with heavy weapons.
  • Battle Sister - the BASIC rank of Adepta Sororitas.

 

 

So for you, a Navy Seal, a Marine, a Machine Gunner, a Sniper are ranks?

 

Nope, they aren't. They're roles.

 

 

 

Try reading the Codex: Adepta Sororitas (http://www.blacklibr...-Sororitas.html).  Guess what's in there: Sisters of Battle (*gasp* shocker!).  They are the exact same thing/organization regardless of what order they are from.  Unless of course you can find me a Codex: Adepta Sororitas and a Codex: Sisters of Battle (from the same edition of 40k).

 

Violent Crimes Investigations is police. Police isn't just Violent Crime INvestigations. You've stealings, computer department, janitors, traffic monitoring, etc.

 

Sisters of Battle is Adepta Sororitas. Adepta Sororitas is not just Sisters of Battle, but order dialogus, ordo hospitaler, etc. etc.

 

 

 

My point was that if the idea was that the Adepta Sororitas was the recruit trying to get in, and the Sisters of Battle was that they finally got in. Then don't freaking call the base class Adepta Sororitas!  Make them an elite advance for Adeptus Ministorum/Ecclisarchy, at least that makes semi-logical (though very general) sense.  Or even more accurate lore wise, have the base class of Progena, as the Sisters recruit from the Schola Progenia.  That is my point.

 

Background: Progena

Elite Advance: Adepta Sororitas/Sister of Battle

 

That is so out of the what 40k lore says at any level.

 

 

Sisters of Battle are sisters that are already sisters (Background: Adepta Sororitas) that are inducted in the sisters of battle to become members of the order militant (Elite advance: battle sister).

 

 

 

Again, total shocker I know (unless you've read the codexes, read any of the Black Library books, etc)

 

 

Not sure what you mean. But if you know so much, why making a topic to discuss with other people?

 

 

 

Sarcasm aside, I've contacted FFG to get an official ruling on using Blood of Martyrs elite advances in 2nd edition.

 

 

lol

 

They'll tell you: there are rules made for that, which is the Battle Sisters special rules. On the other hand, you're quite free of doing what you want in your games and use game material for the last edititions.

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I think you're misunderstanding how the character system in Dark Heresy 2 works.

 

There are no classes or methods of showing what rank in a certain structure a character is. An elite advance puts the character into a more specific role which would grant them access to unique trainings of talents.

 

If I wanted to make say a Commissar, I'd grab an Astra Militarum and possibly grab the Heirophant career and talents I find appropriate. His rank as a Commissar, how he got there are backstory elements I would pass on to my GM.

In the same Vein, if I wanted to make a Seraphim, I'd grab a Adepta Sororitas character, get the Sister of Battle advance and pilot skills. Once more the exact rank and status of the Character is determined by a nice mix of experience, influence and GM fiat on what those mean.

 

In fact I found the rank system in Dark Heresy 1 to make less sense. After all, these characters have been seconded to the Inquisition, it seems unlikely to me that they would still be getting promotions from their original command structure.

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This. Also, many Alternate Career Ranks (despite not really liking the career system, ACR were bit of a fetish for me *pokerface*) could be done by 2ed-ing the relevant talent, or the right combination of Aptitudes, Skills and Talents. At most, Elite Advances save all.

On the topic of Sisterhood, rather than Celestians and Seraphim, non-militant Orders got slightly shorters stick in 2ed, but nothing that couldnt be rectified with houserule-fine tuning.

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