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Is Clontroper5's build invincible?

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I would be happy to play clons list.

 

Piece of cake to "run away bomber trail of death"...  ;)

 

I am really curious to see how it did so well? Did no one run any bombers?  I would think that list would get shredded actually, even going first.

 

Standard defense to this is deploy obliquely to his ships. Run laterally away at max speed so  your side arcs fire as you keep the distance separate for three turns. All the while spam squadron commands to wreck his three ties and ships.

 

Three ties will die in second turn.

Bombers free to work over the demo and raiders

broadsides finish off the ships..

 

What were his opponents?

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Judging by the comments a lot of people really don't get the power of his list and before commenting on it really need to watch several of his games. People who are bringing up he would get shredded by bombers...he faced over 5 lists in the tournament with several bombers and a couple that were very heavy bomber. Saying keep Demo away from you is easier said then done when he will deploy it last so he already knows where you are going. Also he has 2 ties not 3 in his list. Watch the 2 recent games on BiggsIRL's Twitch channel.

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Last night Madaghmire beautifully setup a squadron minefield for Demolisher.  (He was running a VSD with Motti, Avenger ISD and a large anti squadron/bombing force)

 

Clon had no choice but to go in and take his first shot at Madaghmire's VSD with Motti on board. In the squadron phase EVERY squadron took a shot at the Gladiator and actually did pretty good work.  I think Mads would have given his left light saber to trade in Soontir and Mauler for three TIE bombers.

 

I think the only way is to hope for awesome bomber rolls and kill Demo then.

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I think that a list having five activations would help some, since then as 2nd player you will be the last ship to move.  

 

Also, while this list is obviously strong, it's not why he wins so consistently.  He wins because he is familiar with what raiders can do and where they can be, their capabilities, and capitalizes on them.  He doesn't win because of the list; he wins because he is a good player.

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Judging by the comments a lot of people really don't get the power of his list and before commenting on it really need to watch several of his games. People who are bringing up he would get shredded by bombers...he faced over 5 lists in the tournament with several bombers and a couple that were very heavy bomber. Saying keep Demo away from you is easier said then done when he will deploy it last so he already knows where you are going. Also he has 2 ties not 3 in his list. Watch the 2 recent games on BiggsIRL's Twitch channel.

 

I agree, it's easy to beat a list in your imagination, but if you know what you are facing it is actually easy to build a counter list. I prefer to go second as a play style to control engagement, control objectives and pace the game.

 

In my moderate experience I simply can't imagine a *well played* balanced or bomber heavy list not doing at least 5-5 reliably. Are people countering too aggressively? are they foolishly over extending their bombers?

 

I actually played a vader powered 5 raider + Demo list recently against a bomber-heavy list and while I won, I can honestly say it's because my opponent did not get maximum leverage from his bombers and because I exploited objective points better (dangerous territory as second player with a swarm of raiders...). If he had played his bombers more effectively they could ​easily have handled at least a raider a round, not even counting damage from his ships. Even as poorly as he played the bombers (which he openly admitted) they took care of 1.5 raiders and nearly my demolisher (had zero shields left and 4 damage cards)

 

can you post a link to these streams? If I find the time to watch them I would be quite interested.

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Judging by the comments a lot of people really don't get the power of his list and before commenting on it really need to watch several of his games. People who are bringing up he would get shredded by bombers...he faced over 5 lists in the tournament with several bombers and a couple that were very heavy bomber. Saying keep Demo away from you is easier said then done when he will deploy it last so he already knows where you are going. Also he has 2 ties not 3 in his list. Watch the 2 recent games on BiggsIRL's Twitch channel.

 

I agree, it's easy to beat a list in your imagination, but if you know what you are facing it is actually easy to build a counter list. I prefer to go second as a play style to control engagement, control objectives and pace the game.

 

In my moderate experience I simply can't imagine a *well played* balanced or bomber heavy list not doing at least 5-5 reliably. Are people countering too aggressively? are they foolishly over extending their bombers?

 

I actually played a vader powered 5 raider + Demo list recently against a bomber-heavy list and while I won, I can honestly say it's because my opponent did not get maximum leverage from his bombers and because I exploited objective points better (dangerous territory as second player with a swarm of raiders...). If he had played his bombers more effectively they could ​easily have handled at least a raider a round, not even counting damage from his ships. Even as poorly as he played the bombers (which he openly admitted) they took care of 1.5 raiders and nearly my demolisher (had zero shields left and 4 damage cards)

 

can you post a link to these streams? If I find the time to watch them I would be quite interested.

 

I will let Biggs post the direct link but if you search the person BiggsIRL on twitch and look at his saved videos you will find Clon's two most recent games for reference. If you have vassal you can watch several more of his games in the Tournament thread and Tournament replay thread where he destroys heavy bomber lists quite handily. This is with them going speed 1 slow rolling trying to set minefields for Demo to have to go through. Instigator often shoots up to engage most of the bombers and sacrifices itself as Demo zooms right on in and kills your key ship in his last/first activation of either turn 2 or turn 3. Your next ships fall just as quickly with Demo behind them and 4 raiders in front of them. I think his worst win was a 9-1. Not saying he can't be beat but any 2 ship heavy bomber list I think is dead. Maybe against a 4 ships bomber list you can outmaneuver him and kill the Demo after it has killed one of your ships. JJ had the best chance of that but Clon is an expert at knowing his list and their range.

Edited by BMcDonald7

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Even at speed 3 with engine techs, you can fairly easily stay "away" from the demolisher for at least three turns with proper deployment and speed/maneuver control. Why are people flying in any way TOWARD him?  When that is his preferred area of operations?

 

I have never played him or the list....  obviously a fabulous player.  Not saying its not tough...but just curious at the approach toward playing it...

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Even at speed 3 with engine techs, you can fairly easily stay "away" from the demolisher for at least three turns with proper deployment and speed/maneuver control. Why are people flying in any way TOWARD him?  When that is his preferred area of operations?

Deployment and activation advantage means you have no choice.

I faced him in the quarter finals with AF/AF/Yavaris with a very heavy bomber wing. The reason I flew in any way toward Demolisher is because he placed it after 2 of my 3 ships were down, and almost all of my squadrons were in place. I literally had no choice. This is the power that deployment advantage gives you.

Even if you did spend the entirety of your effort on running away from Demolisher somehow, you're only running right into the Raiders.

The best chance against this list tactically is to pop a Raider or two very early--like, turn 2--to mitigate his activation advantage and prevent Demo from doing his hop-in double-tap. But there's no balanced list that I've seen that can get to the other side of the table and then hit hard enough to do that before Demolisher can get across and **** all over your own flagship.

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Even at speed 3 with engine techs, you can fairly easily stay "away" from the demolisher for at least three turns with proper deployment and speed/maneuver control. Why are people flying in any way TOWARD him?  When that is his preferred area of operations?

Deployment and activation advantage means you have no choice.

I faced him in the quarter finals with AF/AF/Yavaris with a very heavy bomber wing. The reason I flew in any way toward Demolisher is because he placed it after 2 of my 3 ships were down, and almost all of my squadrons were in place. I literally had no choice. This is the power that deployment advantage gives you.

Even if you did spend the entirety of your effort on running away from Demolisher somehow, you're only running right into the Raiders.

The best chance against this list tactically is to pop a Raider or two very early--like, turn 2--to mitigate his activation advantage and prevent Demo from doing his hop-in double-tap. But there's no balanced list that I've seen that can get to the other side of the table and then hit hard enough to do that before Demolisher can get across and **** all over your own flagship.

 

Mikemcmann,

You really need to watch the replays on Vassal and the 2 that are on Twitch on BiggsIRL's channel. You won't understand until you do. Ardaedhel explained the difficulty as Clon has 6 deployments. Clon was facing very good players with lots of experience and in the playoffs of the tournament they all knew what they were up against.

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A few points from a PM discussion:

Well the list is very hard to beat if your 2nd player if it is played well.

That said a few things to increase your chances:

-Be aggressive, this might seem odd to say against such a Aggressive list itself but remember non of the ships can take a hit. What this means is Jumping up to speed 3 rather early and trying to catch multiple raiders in your Killzones to guarantee a kill with your first activation (since first player can save 1 Ship) this is obviously hard to do since the 5 activations will make it hard to predict where the Raiders will be.

-boosted comms/rogue+ Rhymer to attack demolisher turn 1 in the deployment zone and hopefully kill it turn 2 Before he murders something

-run away, my raiders generally get shots off by Waiting in your front arc for you to move closer so by running away (especially with assault frigates and mc80s) you Will limit the amount of damage that you will take while still getting shots off. Now the problem is that demolisher will not care and the raiders could always double activate to smack you

Edited by clontroper5

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I think Clon said it pretty well last night, his list is extremely effective against 80 percent of lists. But if he runs into that other 20 percent (where he is denied last-first, underbid, Riekaan) the list has severe drawbacks. He didn't happen to run into any of those in this tournament, although I would have been very interested to see what would have happened if had played Cutter, who ubderbid him by 1, had a significant firespray presence and demolisher.

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A few points from a PM discussion:

Well the list is very hard to beat if your 2nd player if it is played well.

That said a few things to increase your chances:

-Be aggressive, this might seem odd to say against such a Aggressive list itself but remember non of the ships can take a hit. What this means is Jumping up to speed 3 rather early and trying to catch multiple raiders in your Killzones to guarantee a kill with your first activation (since first player can save 1 Ship) this is obviously hard to do since the 5 activations will make it hard to predict where the Raiders will be.

-boosted comms/rogue+ Rhymer to attack demolisher turn 1 in the deployment zone and hopefully kill it turn 2 Before he murders something

-run away, my raiders generally get shots off by Waiting in your front arc for you to move closer so by running away (especially with assault frigates and mc80s) you Will limit the amount of damage that you will take while still getting shots off. Now the problem is that demolisher will not care and the raiders could always double activate to smack you

 

I would give relatively similar advice to a player attempting to beat a TRC/CR-90 swarm.

 

Good job here with the list Clontroper5.  But more than that, good job learning to fly it so well.

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A few points from a PM discussion:

Well the list is very hard to beat if your 2nd player if it is played well.

That said a few things to increase your chances:

-Be aggressive, this might seem odd to say against such a Aggressive list itself but remember non of the ships can take a hit. What this means is Jumping up to speed 3 rather early and trying to catch multiple raiders in your Killzones to guarantee a kill with your first activation (since first player can save 1 Ship) this is obviously hard to do since the 5 activations will make it hard to predict where the Raiders will be.

-boosted comms/rogue+ Rhymer to attack demolisher turn 1 in the deployment zone and hopefully kill it turn 2 Before he murders something

-run away, my raiders generally get shots off by Waiting in your front arc for you to move closer so by running away (especially with assault frigates and mc80s) you Will limit the amount of damage that you will take while still getting shots off. Now the problem is that demolisher will not care and the raiders could always double activate to smack you

 

I would give relatively similar advice to a player attempting to beat a TRC/CR-90 swarm.

 

Good job here with the list Clontroper5.  But more than that, good job learning to fly it so well.

 

This is how my Vader Duet would have ran things. Deploy on the center-line at speed 2 and jump to 3 when needed. I would expect to lose one of the ships but I think each could take several of the Raiders down limiting the activation advantage. It is the only way I can think of that would work atm. . . 

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Even at speed 3 with engine techs, you can fairly easily stay "away" from the demolisher for at least three turns with proper deployment and speed/maneuver control. Why are people flying in any way TOWARD him?  When that is his preferred area of operations?

Deployment and activation advantage means you have no choice.

I faced him in the quarter finals with AF/AF/Yavaris with a very heavy bomber wing. The reason I flew in any way toward Demolisher is because he placed it after 2 of my 3 ships were down, and almost all of my squadrons were in place. I literally had no choice. This is the power that deployment advantage gives you.

Even if you did spend the entirety of your effort on running away from Demolisher somehow, you're only running right into the Raiders.

The best chance against this list tactically is to pop a Raider or two very early--like, turn 2--to mitigate his activation advantage and prevent Demo from doing his hop-in double-tap. But there's no balanced list that I've seen that can get to the other side of the table and then hit hard enough to do that before Demolisher can get across and **** all over your own flagship.

 

Mikemcmann,

You really need to watch the replays on Vassal and the 2 that are on Twitch on BiggsIRL's channel. You won't understand until you do. Ardaedhel explained the difficulty as Clon has 6 deployments. Clon was facing very good players with lots of experience and in the playoffs of the tournament they all knew what they were up against.

 

 

Oh, I totally understand the deployment/activation issue.

 

My point is with three ships and ten squadrons, all those raiders and glad get deployed FIRST.  Then, whichever way they are facing...you DONT face that way.  Speed three, trailing bombers...etc..etc..

 

I would love to play against it.  I have played against very similar builds and a similar-ish one from the rebel perspective with the mc30s and corvettes.  It is my opinion, that all ship builds are sub optimal.  A cloud of bombers will wreck raiders...and glads...  especially if they have no red dice and spend 3-4 turns even getting within range of your capital ships.  It is undeniably NOT difficult to avoid ship on ship action if you simply put effort into it.  I would even go as far to say that it could be very likely that no shots would be had (except maybe the one first activation demo) by the capital ships. Its just too easy with speed three frigates to stay away from the imperial "fast movers"

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A few points from a PM discussion:

Well the list is very hard to beat if your 2nd player if it is played well.

That said a few things to increase your chances:

-Be aggressive, this might seem odd to say against such a Aggressive list itself but remember non of the ships can take a hit. What this means is Jumping up to speed 3 rather early and trying to catch multiple raiders in your Killzones to guarantee a kill with your first activation (since first player can save 1 Ship) this is obviously hard to do since the 5 activations will make it hard to predict where the Raiders will be.

-boosted comms/rogue+ Rhymer to attack demolisher turn 1 in the deployment zone and hopefully kill it turn 2 Before he murders something

-run away, my raiders generally get shots off by Waiting in your front arc for you to move closer so by running away (especially with assault frigates and mc80s) you Will limit the amount of damage that you will take while still getting shots off. Now the problem is that demolisher will not care and the raiders could always double activate to smack you

 

I would give relatively similar advice to a player attempting to beat a TRC/CR-90 swarm.

 

Good job here with the list Clontroper5.  But more than that, good job learning to fly it so well.

 

This is how my Vader Duet would have ran things. Deploy on the center-line at speed 2 and jump to 3 when needed. I would expect to lose one of the ships but I think each could take several of the Raiders down limiting the activation advantage. It is the only way I can think of that would work atm. . . 

 

 

Yeah I would be the middle one. with the rhymer going for the demo. In my experience just 3 firesprays and rhymer firing (boosted comms activation from my ISDII) and some decent rolling along with a solid front arc or (if lucky) double arc with the ISD (even at red range) will typically cinder a gladiator. Again, this hinges on hitting at least average damage. Would go slow until the right time and then go from speed 0 or 1 to speed 3 with my ISD and Demo (Ozzel) to try and catch even 1 raider and then I would run run run the rest of the game and rogue it up with my rhymer turret. First contact would be unbelievable clutch and would determine the rest of the game.

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Even at speed 3 with engine techs, you can fairly easily stay "away" from the demolisher for at least three turns with proper deployment and speed/maneuver control. Why are people flying in any way TOWARD him?  When that is his preferred area of operations?

Deployment and activation advantage means you have no choice.

I faced him in the quarter finals with AF/AF/Yavaris with a very heavy bomber wing. The reason I flew in any way toward Demolisher is because he placed it after 2 of my 3 ships were down, and almost all of my squadrons were in place. I literally had no choice. This is the power that deployment advantage gives you.

Even if you did spend the entirety of your effort on running away from Demolisher somehow, you're only running right into the Raiders.

The best chance against this list tactically is to pop a Raider or two very early--like, turn 2--to mitigate his activation advantage and prevent Demo from doing his hop-in double-tap. But there's no balanced list that I've seen that can get to the other side of the table and then hit hard enough to do that before Demolisher can get across and **** all over your own flagship.

Mikemcmann,

You really need to watch the replays on Vassal and the 2 that are on Twitch on BiggsIRL's channel. You won't understand until you do. Ardaedhel explained the difficulty as Clon has 6 deployments. Clon was facing very good players with lots of experience and in the playoffs of the tournament they all knew what they were up against.

 

Oh, I totally understand the deployment/activation issue.

 

My point is with three ships and ten squadrons, all those raiders and glad get deployed FIRST.  Then, whichever way they are facing...you DONT face that way.  Speed three, trailing bombers...etc..etc..

 

I would love to play against it.  I have played against very similar builds and a similar-ish one from the rebel perspective with the mc30s and corvettes.  It is my opinion, that all ship builds are sub optimal.  A cloud of bombers will wreck raiders...and glads...  especially if they have no red dice and spend 3-4 turns even getting within range of your capital ships.  It is undeniably NOT difficult to avoid ship on ship action if you simply put effort into it.  I would even go as far to say that it could be very likely that no shots would be had (except maybe the one first activation demo) by the capital ships. Its just too easy with speed three frigates to stay away from the imperial "fast movers"

do you have vassal sir? I would be happy to Accept your challange :)

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I have it Clon, but I am a total luddite!  I cannot figure it out..hehehe!  :)

 

Riha was gonna train me, or if you wanted to schedule an evening to teach a dummy, I would love it! :)

 

I accept the challenge with the training caveat! haha.. ;)

I am really looking forward to this game. 

 

I still don't get why you are arguing how easy it would be to beat his list when you haven't seen the lists he has already faced and beat. He didn't win this tournament playing against a bunch of newbies. Anyway please take the time to learn Vassal and play him and see exactly if your 3 ship 10 squadron list would win. 

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I have it Clon, but I am a total luddite!  I cannot figure it out..hehehe!  :)

 

Riha was gonna train me, or if you wanted to schedule an evening to teach a dummy, I would love it! :)

 

I accept the challenge with the training caveat! haha.. ;)

that's fine (although we may not get a proper "sample" since I will have a advantage due to my vassal experience)

I am free most evenings at 6:00 pm pst

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