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How to check loaded dice

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My Howlrunner ship base has a lopsided firing arc, it points farther left than right, should I not use it because it is a manufacturing defect?

 

@OP

 

I think if you honestly want to see if those dice are better than other dice, you really DO need to roll them and collect data, written down, and a LOT of rolls. Not 100, more like 1,000 rolls each. Since they are all the same color, you will have to roll the dice 1 at a time, as you shouldn't mark them since it may affect weight.

 

Basing it off of visually collected data is very tough, and is prone to human bias.

 

On ANOTHER note, I would honestly just live with it, guys. This IS a game after all.

 

But if you insist on doing something, I would talk to the guy and say,

"People are still grumbling about the possibility that your dice roll better odds than theirs. I know it's not your fault, but I'd like to end all this talk. I don't want people to hold it against you when you win a match. Would you mind using a new set of dice for the next couple of events? I'll buy you a new pack just because of the headache we are putting you through."

 

That is about the nicest, most understanding way I can think to say that.

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I am board,

If I have 20 dice but only normal need 4-5 at most for a game if I perceive them to be rolling badly and switch them out mid game is that cheating?

@Rapture you seem to imply that it would be?

 

 

That depends. Are you switching your dice because the other dice that you have are more likely to produce a more desirable result? You are playing a game where the is supposed to be an equal likelihood of any one result occurring - this is why dice are used. It serves to make it fair for both players. If you are using dice that are more likely to produce a favorable outcome than your opponents dice, then what would you call it?

 

 

 

 

 

I am switching out the dice because I feel like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results yes.

I have no mathematical foundation for this feeling but it is why I am doing it.

As another example, in 40K/Fantasy/any roll to hit, then to wound game I will always use the dice that missed on my to hit roll for my to wound roll as they are now due a good roll.

This is due to the same feeling I have that they will be more likely to produce a more desirable result.

Cheating?

Kris

Edited by KrisSherriff

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A hypothetical situation:

 

Little Jimmy buys his first X-Wing Core Set. It has 3 red and 3 green dice. By some bizarre manufacturing flaw, the green dice roll evades 75%+ of the time and the red dice crits as often as hits. This happens consistently, every time he plays. Jimmy has not sought these dice or tested hundreds to get them – they are the ones that were put in his box by the manufacturers. If he takes these dice to a tournament and uses them, is he cheating?

 

To be clear, I'm not on either side in this little drama, just wondering what Rapture's take on this will be?

 

I like this point. There is NO way he is cheating.

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My Howlrunner ship base has a lopsided firing arc, it points farther left than right, should I not use it because it is a manufacturing defect?

 

 

Personally, I'd ask FFG for a new one.

 

Time out.

 

You're taking this thread far too seriously.

 

Off to the dip with you.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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My Howlrunner ship base has a lopsided firing arc, it points farther left than right, should I not use it because it is a manufacturing defect?

 

 

Personally, I'd ask FFG for a new one.

 

 

Want to ask for me? That sounds like a LOT of work for minimal gain.

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My Howlrunner ship base has a lopsided firing arc, it points farther left than right, should I not use it because it is a manufacturing defect?

 

 

Personally, I'd ask FFG for a new one.

 

 

Want to ask for me? That sounds like a LOT of work for minimal gain.

 

I wouldn't bother.

 

I took Howlrunner out last week with a Scum Z-95.

 

And then got my arse kicked.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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My Howlrunner ship base has a lopsided firing arc, it points farther left than right, should I not use it because it is a manufacturing defect?

 

 

Personally, I'd ask FFG for a new one.

 

 

Want to ask for me? That sounds like a LOT of work for minimal gain.

 

I wouldn't bother.

 

I took Howlrunner out last week with a Scum Z-95.

 

And then got my arse kicked.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

You should have used dice you had spent an evening testing.

 

Kris

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You should have used dice you had spent an evening testing.

 

Kris

 

The only dice I've ever tested in an evening have been cylindrical in shape with Carling on the side.

 

Cheers

Baaa 

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...I honestly do not think that you are very bright. 

 

Baaaah,

 

My degrees in archaeology suggest otherwise; however, in deference to your pompousness - 

 

Continue thinking that you're superior.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Pompousness? That is an interesting word to be slung by a person who just cited his prestigious archaeology degree in a miniatures gaming forum.

 

But you still haven't cited that rule. Did you make it up?

 

 

 

I am board,

If I have 20 dice but only normal need 4-5 at most for a game if I perceive them to be rolling badly and switch them out mid game is that cheating?

@Rapture you seem to imply that it would be?

 

 

That depends. Are you switching your dice because the other dice that you have are more likely to produce a more desirable result? You are playing a game where the is supposed to be an equal likelihood of any one result occurring - this is why dice are used. It serves to make it fair for both players. If you are using dice that are more likely to produce a favorable outcome than your opponents dice, then what would you call it?

 

 

 

 

 

I am switching out the dice because I feel like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results yes.

I have no mathematical foundation for this feeling but it is why I am doing it.

As another example, in 40K/Fantasy/any roll to hit, then to wound game I will always use the dice that missed on my to hit roll for my to wound roll as they are now due a good roll.

This is due to the same feeling I have that they will be more likely to produce a more desirable result.

Cheating?

Kris

 

 

 

That depends on whether or not you are right. If you are wrong and no supernatural power is manipulating the result that your dice produce, then you are not cheating.

 

So, if your opponent purchased a set of dice from a shady guy on a corner and that shady guy promised that they were weighted to roll more hits than blanks, but they actually were just standard dice, would he be cheating? Just like you, he is:

 

1) Is switching out the dice because I feels like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results; and


2) Has no mathematical foundation for this feeling, but it is why he is doing it.

 

I have always used a definition of cheating that it occurs regardless of intent. It is not an indictment of one's character, only a word that means that the rules are being broken. Also, attempting to cheat and intending to cheat exist independently of actually breaking the rules

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I am switching out the dice because I feel like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results yes.

I have no mathematical foundation for this feeling but it is why I am doing it.

As another example, in 40K/Fantasy/any roll to hit, then to wound game I will always use the dice that missed on my to hit roll for my to wound roll as they are now due a good roll.

This is due to the same feeling I have that they will be more likely to produce a more desirable result.

Cheating?

Kris

 

Being superstitious is not cheating. 

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...I honestly do not think that you are very bright. 

 

Baaaah,

 

My degrees in archaeology suggest otherwise; however, in deference to your pompousness - 

 

Continue thinking that you're superior.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Pompousness? That is an interesting word to be slung by a person who just cited his prestigious archaeology degree in a miniatures gaming forum.

 

But you still haven't cited that rule. Did you make it up?

 

 

 

I am board,

If I have 20 dice but only normal need 4-5 at most for a game if I perceive them to be rolling badly and switch them out mid game is that cheating?

@Rapture you seem to imply that it would be?

 

 

That depends. Are you switching your dice because the other dice that you have are more likely to produce a more desirable result? You are playing a game where the is supposed to be an equal likelihood of any one result occurring - this is why dice are used. It serves to make it fair for both players. If you are using dice that are more likely to produce a favorable outcome than your opponents dice, then what would you call it?

 

 

 

 

 

I am switching out the dice because I feel like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results yes.

I have no mathematical foundation for this feeling but it is why I am doing it.

As another example, in 40K/Fantasy/any roll to hit, then to wound game I will always use the dice that missed on my to hit roll for my to wound roll as they are now due a good roll.

This is due to the same feeling I have that they will be more likely to produce a more desirable result.

Cheating?

Kris

 

 

 

That depends on whether or not you are right. If you are wrong and no supernatural power is manipulating the result that your dice produce, then you are not cheating.

 

So, if your opponent purchased a set of dice from a shady guy on a corner and that shady guy promised that they were weighted to roll more hits than blanks, but they actually were just standard dice, would he be cheating? Just like you, he is:

 

1) Is switching out the dice because I feels like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results; and

2) Has no mathematical foundation for this feeling, but it is why he is doing it.

 

I have always used a definition of cheating that it occurs regardless of intent. It is not an indictment of one's character, only a word that means that the rules are being broken. Also, attempting to cheat and intending to cheat exist independently of actually breaking the rules

 

 

And this is where your "argument" falls down.

That is not to call in to question your actual opinion, which is 100% valid but the rigid definition of a word that you are forcing in to a situation in which is does not apply. (in my opinion)

For cheating to occur there has to be intent.  Otherwise it is a mistake which is covered in the rulebook under missed opportunities/bumping ships/slight errors in templates etc.

You are (if I summarise correctly) saying, to take it to its most simplest form; that if i roll an attack with a ship that has a target lock and blank out on my roll. That if I say that I will spend my target lock, but that I am using these other dice because these dice obviously hate me. (did you see what I did there www.dicehate.com)

If the other dice that I rolled instead come up as hits, that I cheated but if they come up as misses it was fine.  What happens if its a 2 dice attack an one comes up blank and the other a hit?

Something can be against the rules but not cheating, thats why this is a game and not gambling or a sport.

 

As always I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong as that is not how a discussion should work, i am just explaining why my view is different to yours.

 

And then the internet was a lovely place where we all got along.

Kris

Edited by KrisSherriff

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...And then the internet was a lovely place where we all got along.

Kris

 

Can I get some of what you're on please?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

One of the main problems with an internet forum is in fact the use of the word forum in the name :D

An open ground for discussion is not the same as an open forum for debate, the mere mention of the word forum implies that there should be some form of consensus reached when in fact, simply sharing multiple views and being open and receptive to who people actually hold a differing opinion is often more worthwhile than an open debate where one side must be placed above the other.

I had a simler discussion on Facebook a week or so ago asking about who's responsibility it is to ensure that a dice is rolled if you fly over an asteroid.

At what point does forgetting something that should happen become cheating?

Kris

Edited by KrisSherriff

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If it's a tournament situation (in the case of either the dice or the Howlrunner situation), ask the TO to make a call on if the dice/pilot token need to be swapped out. If it's a friendly, ask if they mind using different dice or if you can use theirs.

And I believe switching dice mid-game if they are 'betraying' you is acceptable in a tournament - in fact, didn't this happen in the last Worlds final, or am I misremembering?

Edited by Trevellian

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...And then the internet was a lovely place where we all got along.

Kris

 

Can I get some of what you're on please?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

One of the main problems with an internet forum is in fact the use of the word forum in the name :D

An open ground for discussion is not the same as an open forum for debate, the mere mention of the word forum implies that there should be some form of consensus reached when intact, simply sharing multiple views and being open and receptive to who people actually hold a differing opinion is often more worthwhile than an open debate where one side must be placed above the other.

I had a simler discussion on Facebook a week or so ago asking about who's responsibility it is to ensure that a dice is rolled if you fly over an asteroid.

At what point does forgetting something that should happen become cheating?

Kris

 

Such things happen when a demon is set free.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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That depends on whether or not you are right. If you are wrong and no supernatural power is manipulating the result that your dice produce, then you are not cheating.

 

So, if your opponent purchased a set of dice from a shady guy on a corner and that shady guy promised that they were weighted to roll more hits than blanks, but they actually were just standard dice, would he be cheating? Just like you, he is:

 

1) Is switching out the dice because I feels like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results; and


2) Has no mathematical foundation for this feeling, but it is why he is doing it.

 

I have always used a definition of cheating that it occurs regardless of intent. It is not an indictment of one's character, only a word that means that the rules are being broken. Also, attempting to cheat and intending to cheat exist independently of actually breaking the rules

 

 

For cheating to occur there has to be intent.  Otherwise it is a mistake which is covered in the rulebook under missed opportunities/bumping ships/slight errors in templates etc.

Something can be against the rules but not cheating, thats why this is a game and not gambling or a sport.

Kris

 

 

You did look into that conclusion before you decided on it. Go look at the various definitions of the word "cheat." Some require intent, some do not. Go look them up. There is even a thread on this forum that goes into it pretty heavily.

 

 

You are (if I summarise correctly) saying, to take it to its most simplest form; that if i roll an attack with a ship with a target lock and blank out that if I say that I will spend my target lock but that I am using these other dice as these dice obviously hate me that if the dice i roll instead come up as hits I cheated but if the come up as a miss it was fine.  What happens if its a 2 dice attack an one comes up blank and the other a hit?

Something can be against the rules but not cheating, thats why this is a game and not gambling or a sport.

 

As always I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong as that is not how a discussion should work, i am just explaining why my view is different to yours.

 

 

No. That does not make any sense. Rolling dice that produce a random outcome is not cheating. Rolling dice that do not produce a random outcome is cheating. Rolling dice that you think will not produce a random outcome, but actually do is not cheating as you haven't broken a rule, you only attempted to.

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Rapture the problem is how are you going to prove that someone is cheating? Maybe someone does test there dice 1000 times before a tournament? How will you prove it? Once you accuse someone they will obviously deny it and ask for proof.

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If it's a tournament situation (in the case of either the dice or the Howlrunner situation), ask the TO to make a call on if the dice/pilot token need to be swapped out. If it's a friendly, ask if they mind using different dice or if you can use theirs.

And I believe switching dice mid-game if they are 'betraying' you is acceptable in a tournament - in fact, didn't this happen in the last Worlds final, or am I misremembering?

 

At what point does pre-screening your dice become the issue then?

If I am traveling to an event and want to travel light I sometimes only take the maximum dice of each type I will need.  Obviously this is a problem for a superstitious idiot like myself so I roll them a couple of times and if they come up as blanks than I will pre-swap them out.

I also have no problem with someone spending an evening rolling their dice again, and again, and again, and again to fine the ones that they think are rolling better.

It is a very low probability that they are actually performing an experiment that would hold any merit despite their scientific method.

I would go as far as to say that I also don't really care if someone spends $10,000 on X-Wing dice, another $100,000 funding some research in to which 10 of each of their sample pool rolls the best and just using those dice.  I don't see the point in it, but I also don't se the point in a lot of things the good players do to get better.  I just want to play the game and have fun.  If that is what you need to do to enjoy it, than at least you won't be able to cry about your dice when I beat you.

 

Kris

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At what point does pre-screening your dice become the issue then?

At the point where the dice selected (deliberately or by chance) are not operating as they should, are interfering with fair game play to the degree that it is noticable and appears to be more than chance, and (in a tournament situation) the TO agrees. In either a friendly game or a tournament there shouldn't be a problem locating replacement dice I would have thought.

Edited by Trevellian

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That depends on whether or not you are right. If you are wrong and no supernatural power is manipulating the result that your dice produce, then you are not cheating.

 

So, if your opponent purchased a set of dice from a shady guy on a corner and that shady guy promised that they were weighted to roll more hits than blanks, but they actually were just standard dice, would he be cheating? Just like you, he is:

 

1) Is switching out the dice because I feels like they will be more likely to produce more desirable results; and

2) Has no mathematical foundation for this feeling, but it is why he is doing it.

 

I have always used a definition of cheating that it occurs regardless of intent. It is not an indictment of one's character, only a word that means that the rules are being broken. Also, attempting to cheat and intending to cheat exist independently of actually breaking the rules

 

 

For cheating to occur there has to be intent.  Otherwise it is a mistake which is covered in the rulebook under missed opportunities/bumping ships/slight errors in templates etc.

Something can be against the rules but not cheating, thats why this is a game and not gambling or a sport.

Kris

 

 

You did look into that conclusion before you decided on it. Go look at the various definitions of the word "cheat." Some require intent, some do not. Go look them up. There is even a thread on this forum that goes into it pretty heavily.

 

 

You are (if I summarise correctly) saying, to take it to its most simplest form; that if i roll an attack with a ship with a target lock and blank out that if I say that I will spend my target lock but that I am using these other dice as these dice obviously hate me that if the dice i roll instead come up as hits I cheated but if the come up as a miss it was fine.  What happens if its a 2 dice attack an one comes up blank and the other a hit?

Something can be against the rules but not cheating, thats why this is a game and not gambling or a sport.

 

As always I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong as that is not how a discussion should work, i am just explaining why my view is different to yours.

 

 

No. That does not make any sense. Rolling dice that produce a random outcome is not cheating. Rolling dice that do not produce a random outcome is cheating. Rolling dice that you think will not produce a random outcome, but actually do is not cheating as you haven't broken a rule, you only attempted to.

 

 

As I said, I will not discuss your opinion on cheating, only your reliance on your opinion on it when arguing this specific case.

Now we get you on to shakier ground as you have just admitted that it is actually about sample size.

I am willing to concede that in a theoretical scenario where someone rolls dice that come up one facing (remember coming up as a result is not the same as a facing) 100% of the time is cheating.

 

But

 

What about someone who has weighted dice and still rolls a blank, that 5% to use the numbers that you were quoting, if they have full on actually weighted dice, but due to the probability outliers roll statistically average over a game.  You are saying that they are not cheating in that game, only in the ones where the dice work?

I call shenanigans on your whole argument at this point. :P

 

Kris

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Extra note on the topic - I acknowledge that lots of people have dice superstitions, including throwing out dice that roll badly, punishing them by sticking them in the freezer, smashing one as a lesson to the others etc, etc.

But I sincerely believe that the vast majority of such folks, if they suddenly found that their lucky dice were actually not lucky but demonstrably rolling that way due to a manufacturing fault for example, would be horrified and swap them out immediately.

Edited by Trevellian

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As an interesting aside, I don't actually have to "go look up" cheating as this discussion is actually a rather old philosophical debate.

It is actually a good moral exercise to try to run through scenarios to figure out where you stand on different things and how swingy your own opinion can actually be based on the smaller difference in circumstance.

 

What is the difference between lying and just being incorrect?

Is a child lying when they answer a math question incorrectly.

Is there a difference between someone who knowingly uses performance enhancing drugs compared to one who was doped by a coach?

 

All interesting philosophical questions that we all come down on in different places.

All that matters for a discussion like this is that you are consistent in your application of your own opinion across one example.

 

Kris

Edited by KrisSherriff

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