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exinfris

How to check loaded dice

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And you cry hyperbole because your stance produces an outrageous result.

 

Bravo, as they say.

 

That example was not hyperbole. I meant for it to be taken literally. There is no reason why a die with eight crit sides could not be produced and its impact, consistently producing a desirable result as opposed to a rondom result, would not be that different that a die that rolls a hit 90-95% of the time.

 

Regardless, tell me that, under your argument that game components cannot be disqualified because of manufacturing defects, the eight sided critical hit die would be illegal. Or, agree that, if it existed, you would support that die being used at a major tournament.

 

And again, I say hyperbole.

 

Try turning up at a tournament with an 8-sided crit die.

 

 

Say whatever single word response that you want in order to avoid justifying your stance - it changes nothing.

 

The fact that a TO has complete discretion to exclude people for whatever arbitrary or justified reason pops into the TO's head is irrelevant here. Again, you are avoiding justifying your stance. You say that it is not illegal, I say that it is. The rules do not take a position on components with manufacturing defects. However, it is clear from the selection of dice as the method to produce the outcomes required in X-Wing that those outcomes are meant to be random.

 

Additionally, stop falling back on the hyperbole thing. Consider presenting an actual argument instead. The fact that you personally think that an example being used to demonstrate a potential error in your reasoning is unrealistic has no impact on whether or not that potential error exists.

Edited by Rapture

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And you cry hyperbole because your stance produces an outrageous result.

 

Bravo, as they say.

 

That example was not hyperbole. I meant for it to be taken literally. There is no reason why a die with eight crit sides could not be produced and its impact, consistently producing a desirable result as opposed to a rondom result, would not be that different that a die that rolls a hit 90-95% of the time.

 

Regardless, tell me that, under your argument that game components cannot be disqualified because of manufacturing defects, the eight sided critical hit die would be illegal. Or, agree that, if it existed, you would support that die being used at a major tournament.

 

And again, I say hyperbole.

 

Try turning up at a tournament with an 8-sided crit die.

 

 

Say whatever single word response that you want in order to avoid justifying your stance - it changes nothing.

 

The fact that a TO has complete discretion to exclude people for whatever arbitrary or justified reason pops into the TO's head is irrelevant here. Again, you are avoiding justifying your stance. You say that it is not illegal, I say that it is. The rules do not take a position on components with manufacturing defects. However, it is clear from the selection of dice as the method to produce the outcomes required in X-Wing that those outcomes are meant to be random.

 

Additionally, stop falling back on the hyperbole thing. Consider presenting an actual argument instead. The fact that you personally think that an example being used to demonstrate a potential error in your reasoning is unrealistic has no impact on whether or not that potential error exists.

 

 

The rules also don't say I can't threaten, cajole, physically pick up and throat slam my opponent onto the table. They don't say I can't be a poor sport and call foul and get pissy. There are a universe full of things that don't fit into the scope of the rules, but that doesn't mean any of them are ok. 

You have to follow Wheaton's Law and assume everyone else is going to as well. If you have decided that you need some unfair advantage to win, you maybe need to step back and re-evaluate your life.

 

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His point is you are being a jacka--.  Did your boss just come by your cube and crao on you so you decided to bring that negativity in here or are you always this way?

Why am I being a jackass? For pointing out that the OP may be playing against someone who has done nothing wrong and that it's something that anyone reading this thread can do, legally?

 

Your moral outrage is irrelevant.

 

...Consider presenting an actual argument instead. The fact that you personally think that an example being used to demonstrate a potential error in your reasoning is unrealistic has no impact on whether or not that potential error exists.

 

My argument stands.

 

There is absolutely nothing to stop you, or I, or indeed anyone reading this thread spending an entire evening going through 100 dice to try and find which ones roll (in our opinions) favourable results.

 

If either of us were inclined to do so, it's something that would not have been illegal. Please tell me where exactly it says that it is.

 

You can't.

 

As for your example of an 8-sided crit die? Really?

 

Cheers

Baaa

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How about just not playing with the guy instead of going through a witch hunt? Also I don't do the whole dice sharing thing. Call me superstitious, a cheater, a germophobe, or whatever. Thing is my dice roll complete average and I've played with people who roll amazing most of time. I just chalk it up to luck and that's it. I'm not gonna ask to roll there dice or make them roll mine. Plus idk about you guys but there are some gross players who play x wing and I don't want there nasty unshowered, unwashed, cheeto dusty, pizza greassy, hands they probably just freshly masturbated with touching my stuff. Ughh

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..If you have decided that you need some unfair advantage to win, you maybe need to step back and re-evaluate your life.

I don't need an unfair advantage to win, and anyone who has ever played me will agree. Because I'd need more than loaded dice to actually win. As for re-evaluating my life?

 

I don't know you and you don't know me, I'm happy with where my life is; so don't make assumptions.

 

Try reading what I've said instead of getting on a moral high horse. I've simply pointed out the fact that the OP may be playing someone who has spent time trying to tip the odds in his favour, legally.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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His point is you are being a jacka--.  Did your boss just come by your cube and crao on you so you decided to bring that negativity in here or are you always this way?

Why am I being a jackass? For pointing out that the OP may be playing against someone who has done nothing wrong and that it's something that anyone reading this thread can do, legally?

 

Your moral outrage is irrelevant.

 

...Consider presenting an actual argument instead. The fact that you personally think that an example being used to demonstrate a potential error in your reasoning is unrealistic has no impact on whether or not that potential error exists.

 

My argument stands.

 

There is absolutely nothing to stop you, or I, or indeed anyone reading this thread spending an entire evening going through 100 dice to try and find which ones roll (in our opinions) favourable results.

 

If either of us were inclined to do so, it's something that would not have been illegal. Please tell me where exactly it says that it is.

 

 

I just told you why it would be illegal. The rules cannot cover everything and do not attempt to do so. Again, the method of generating an in-game outcome was designed to be random. The rules require that that method be used to generate outcomes. Using a defective version of that method results in outcomes that are not random. Therefore, it is against the rules. Again, not an explicit rule, but an implied rule.

 

If your argument, which I understand to be that defective game components are legal to play with, stands, then you agree that a die manufactured by FFG that, due to an error in the manufacturing process, has a crit symbol on each face is legal to play with. Or, do you not agree with that? If you do not, then your argument does not stand.

 

Don't skip the question - respond.

 

 

 

As for your example of an 8-sided crit die? Really?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Yes. Really. Not a particularly difficult thing to imagine. You skipped addressing it, but in what meaningful way would the 8-crit-die differ from a die that rolled hits 90-95% of the time?

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I have 9 reds and 9 greens. I usually only 4 of each for a tournament. To find out which reds to take I roll all 9. I immediately retire any blanks and put any crits into the box I take. If there are more hits I roll them again and elimate all blanks until I get 4 dice that only rolled 4 hits or crits. I think this gives me an advantage. Maybe it was just straight luck, maybe those 4 dice were manufactured wrong, maybe the dice gods have blessed those 4 dice today. Who honestly knows? As long I'm not physically tampering with any of them it's all good.

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Who honestly knows?

 

Anyone who believes in evidence.

 

If you think that you are walking in there with dice that give you an advantage over your opponent, then that is between you and your conscience.

Edited by Rapture

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Who honestly knows?

 

Anyone who believe in evidence.

 

If you think that you are walking in there with dice that give you an advantage over your opponent, then that is between you and your conscience.

OK so I do, prove that I'm cheating?

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I just told you why it would be illegal. The rules cannot cover everything and do not attempt to do so. Again, the method of generating an in-game outcome was designed to be random. The rules require that that method be used to generate outcomes. Using a defective version of that method results in outcomes that are not random. Therefore, it is against the rules. Again, not an explicit rule, but an implied rule.

 

If your argument, which I understand to be that defective game components are legal to play with, stands, then you agree that a die manufactured by FFG that, due to an error in the manufacturing process, has a crit symbol on each face is legal to play with. Or, do you not agree with that? If you do not, then your argument does not stand.

 

Don't skip the question - respond.

 

 

 

As for your example of an 8-sided crit die? Really?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Yes. Really. Not a particularly difficult thing to imagine. You skipped addressing it, but in what meaningful way would the 8-crit-die differ from a die that rolled hits 90-95% of the time?

 

And in your argument implied rules are the norm?

 

I ask you again, please provide something in the actual rules (and not your imagination) which says that going through dice to try and find ones which give a favourable result is illegal.

 

You can't. Because outside of your imagination, that rule doesn't exist.

 

As for your 8-sided crit argument?

 

The modification part of the rules should give you your answer as to why that isn't quite right.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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And in your argument implied rules are the norm?

 

 

Obviously. You are not paying attention. I am not aware of any successful games that do not use a permissive system, meaning that the rules only have to tell you what you can do and not what you can't do, rule set. This is because of the difficult and impractical task that shutting down every undesirable action would require.

 

 

I just told you why it would be illegal. The rules cannot cover everything and do not attempt to do so. Again, the method of generating an in-game outcome was designed to be random. The rules require that that method be used to generate outcomes. Using a defective version of that method results in outcomes that are not random. Therefore, it is against the rules. Again, not an explicit rule, but an implied rule.

 

If your argument, which I understand to be that defective game components are legal to play with, stands, then you agree that a die manufactured by FFG that, due to an error in the manufacturing process, has a crit symbol on each face is legal to play with. Or, do you not agree with that? If you do not, then your argument does not stand.

 

Don't skip the question - respond.

 

 

 

As for your example of an 8-sided crit die? Really?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Yes. Really. Not a particularly difficult thing to imagine. You skipped addressing it, but in what meaningful way would the 8-crit-die differ from a die that rolled hits 90-95% of the time?

 

 

I ask you again, please provide something in the actual rules (and not your imagination) which says that going through dice to try and find ones which give a favourable result is illegal.

 

You can't. Because outside of your imagination, that rule doesn't exist.

 

As for your 8-sided crit argument?

 

The modification part of the rules should give you your answer as to why that isn't quite right.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

First of all, you skipped the question. I understand how easy it can be to make an argument when you ignore requests that you apply what you are arguing, but humor me and answer.

 

Second, do not provide vague references to the rules. If you have rules that prove that you are correct, then why aren't you sharing them? Go ahead and provide a quote and then apply it.

 

Finally, I have explained the concept of implied rules and supported it several times. Tell me what you do not understand about it and I will do my best to explain it in a different way.

 

 

 

Nice!  More drama, now involving sheep! 

 

This thread just keeps getting better all the time!

Don't diss da sheep.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Cute.

Edited by Rapture

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I really wish that FFG would add "Dice" to the list of things you can demand to share in the tourney rules.  It would solve this issue really quick.

While I don't disagree...I think the superstitious crazy people or people who have placed high at regionals/worlds would riot.

My son is like that! I can't touch the dice he is using during a game! If I do, he grabs new ones from the spares!

 

I think anyone who's ever played roleplaying games (or just alot of board games that involve dice) develop certain superstitious-like tendencies.

I know that I, for example, always set aside the dice that rolled low in my last roll, to use when I "really" need to roll high. (the not-so-logical reasoning being that if I just rolled a 1 with that dice, it's less likely to roll another 1 on the next roll.)

I have friends that only use die of certain colours. And others that always switch out their die after each roll. And some that have their "lucky" die that they keep for emergencies :P

I have a specific speckled tan/black die that I use for my WWII Germans and it that has earned the name "Nazi die" from my opponents, because it seems to turn up "1" whenever I need to roll low and "6" whenever I need to roll high!

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Cute.

Thanks.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

You skipped the question again and did not provide the rules that support what you are claiming. I get that you have a friend to pander to and an apparent internet persona that you are invested in, but you seemed pretty adamant that you are correct. Walking away now may look bad. Maybe cover up the fact that you are prattling nonsense by posting a picture of bacon and letting the thread dissolve?

 

Or, you could prove me wrong by presenting an actual argument.

 

 

You're arguing with a sheep.

 

 

More likely a person with the mental capacity of a sheep.

Edited by Rapture

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If a component is defective it is then no longer useable for whatever the rules say concerning how to use said component.  If a ship base is half-broken and missing a chunk you simply can't use it in a game, whether the rules are anal enough to say that or not.  If the dice are not random (as they are meant to be) then you need new dice.

Edited by Boba Rick

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More likely a person with the mental capacity of a sheep.

 

And your argument descends to the level of personal insults.

 

Cute.

 

I KNOW exactly what you're saying with your rules as implied nonsense; it's exactly the same as the rules as intended one. I've played games in a tournament setting for nearly 30 years.

 

Someone somewhere, who can be arsed (or is that sad), could probably get a PhD out of the rise of the RAI v RAW argument in proportion to the rise of the internet as a communicative medium.

 

But do you know what?

 

Bollocks. I have never seen anyone win an argument with a TO at a tournament when it has been based on on implication, or intention as opposed to the rules of the game.

 

Continue living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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A hypothetical situation:

 

Little Jimmy buys his first X-Wing Core Set. It has 3 red and 3 green dice. By some bizarre manufacturing flaw, the green dice roll evades 75%+ of the time and the red dice crits as often as hits. This happens consistently, every time he plays. Jimmy has not sought these dice or tested hundreds to get them – they are the ones that were put in his box by the manufacturers. If he takes these dice to a tournament and uses them, is he cheating?

 

To be clear, I'm not on either side in this little drama, just wondering what Rapture's take on this will be?

Edited by Graeme Lyon

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More likely a person with the mental capacity of a sheep.

 

 

I KNOW exactly what you're saying with your rules as implied nonsense; it's exactly the same as the rules as intended one. I've played games in a tournament setting for nearly 30 years.

 

Someone somewhere, who can be arsed (or is that sad), could probably get a PhD out of the rise of the RAI v RAW argument in proportion to the rise of the internet as a communicative medium.

 

But do you know what?

 

Bollocks. I have never seen anyone win an argument with a TO at a tournament when it has been based on on implication, or intention as opposed to the rules of the game.

 

Continue living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Implied rules and rules as intended are not the same. Rules as intended is a way to interpret rules (most of these types of situation result in FAQ responses from FFG, but, an example would be playing Dark Curse so that he got a focus when he started with a stress token and then executed a green maneuver). Implied rules are rules that are not explicitly written but which much exist as a part of the game (e.g. outcomes that are meant to be produced randomly must be produced randomly).

 

You still have't quoted that rule that you referenced. Are you going to?

 

 

 

More likely a person with the mental capacity of a sheep.

 

And your argument descends to the level of personal insults.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

That was not meant as an insult, but as an observation. Judging by your behavior, your logic, and you failure to support you argument even when specifically called out for not doing so, I honestly do not think that you are very bright. The reference to a sheep was what some would call hyperbole.

 

But, feel free to prove me wrong.

 

I am board,

If I have 20 dice but only normal need 4-5 at most for a game if I perceive them to be rolling badly and switch them out mid game is that cheating?

@Rapture you seem to imply that it would be?

 

 

That depends. Are you switching your dice because the other dice that you have are more likely to produce a more desirable result? You are playing a game where the is supposed to be an equal likelihood of any one result occurring - this is why dice are used. It serves to make it fair for both players. If you are using dice that are more likely to produce a favorable outcome than your opponents dice, then what would you call it?

 

 

A hypothetical situation:

 

Little Jimmy buys his first X-Wing Core Set. It has 3 red and 3 green dice. By some bizarre manufacturing flaw, the green dice roll evades 75%+ of the time and the red dice crits as often as hits. This happens consistently, every time he plays. Jimmy has not sought these dice or tested hundreds to get them – they are the ones that were put in his box by the manufacturers. If he takes these dice to a tournament and uses them, is he cheating?

 

To be clear, I'm not on either side in this little drama, just wondering what Rapture's take on this will be?

Not intentionally, but yes. If you walk into the Bellagio, go up to a craps table, are handing dice by the last shooter and roll them - not knowing that they are loaded dice - will the casino accuse you of cheating on that roll?

 

There is a whole thread on this, though. It really depends on your definition of cheating and, more specifically, whether you believe that the work requires intent.

Edited by Rapture

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I can't find the topic now, did we ever get a consensus from the guy that built a lego contraption for the testing of dice rolling?  He had tested each die something like 10,000  rolls and came up with some great conclusions (and remarkably average results).  

 

From my basic knowledge of craps, craps dice are designed differently than board or gaming dice.  It has to do with the intended use and randomness expected.  If you throw precision machined dice across a 20 foot table and bounce them off a random wall, you can almost assuredly guarantee they are going to be random results.  To my understanding, board gaming dice are meant to be rolled and are meant to roll around on the table once they hit, and are created with this intention (rolled edges).  And yes, by rolling dice a certain way you can affect the outcome.  But in a game where people are quirky and superstitious... would you know the difference?

 

If you want to know if someone is cheating dice, then you need to hire one of the security guys from a Las Vegas craps table.  I have to admit, that would be one HELLUVAn interesting tournament to watch!  

Edited by jonnyd

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As Hobojebus said, accidentally forget yours, see what the reaction is. Normally people do not care who uses what dice. Unless they have some kind of OCD germ phobia or something.

 

 

Really?  I've known plenty of people who would never touch someone else's dice.  Have even played board games with families and when someone's kid reached over for my dice the dad freaked 'you never touch someone else's dice'.

 

For a long time I was like that too and I didn't want people using my dice.  I had 3d6 from the 70s and they were my dice.  Eventually I dropped them on a tile floor one cracked.  I put them a away and bought a bag of generic dice.  Over time I've even replaced those with Ogre, Munchkin and Koplow dice.  I share now, but sometimes during a game; I pick mine out and stick with just those for the duration of the game.  Especially in Ogre since I use the dice for the side I'm playing.

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