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How to check loaded dice

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Would be nice if there as an option for precision made dice for X-Wing. Ones that have been manufactured with strict tolerances to be as random as possible...like the ones used in casinos or backgammon.

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Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

 

But it is not illegal. You, and others, might moan about it breaking the game, but an advantage taken within the rules of any game is a fair advantage. And one that anyone can use, if they choose to.

 

And your second point is moot. If I know my dice are going to land more hits or crits because I've spent ages selecting them, then the chances are, that they will still have an advantage over  ones which I've just pulled out of a starter box. 

 

Cheers

Baaa

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The only real way to find out is to do some Chi-squared tests by rolling his dice repeatedly.  Compare them to other dice.  The salt water trick doesn't work that well.  I did that for one of my d20s, and it was always floating up on the '20'.  I did a chi-squared test on the die, rolled it a couple hundred times or so, and it showed no bias on the 20 whatsoever.  If anything it was biased to the '14'.

This is the problem with injection molded dice. Because the numbers or icons are part of the metal die face the amount of material displaced varies unless it was considered when the metal die face was machined. I'm curious what number is opposite the "20" face.

Should be 7, or not? Normally all adding up to 21 with their respective opposite face.

And as said, there would be a market for better quality dice. Unfortunately, they would be expensive as FFG's extra dice pack is not that cheap, relatively seen to ship pack prices.

Real casino quality would be quite expensive, you pay for premium qualuty.

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Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

But it is not illegal. You, and others, might moan about it breaking the game, but an advantage taken within the rules of any game is a fair advantage. And one that anyone can use, if they choose to.

If you do not believe that the rules imply that irregularly produced components cannot be used, then you are correct. If you are correct, the someone who opens a pack of FFG X-Wing dice where each of the eight sides of the red dice has a crit symbol would be able to use them to win the next X-Wing World Tournament.

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Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

But it is not illegal. You, and others, might moan about it breaking the game, but an advantage taken within the rules of any game is a fair advantage. And one that anyone can use, if they choose to.

If you do not believe that the rules imply that irregularly produced components cannot be used, then you are correct. If you are correct, the someone who opens a pack of FFG X-Wing dice where each of the eight sides of the red dice has a crit symbol would be able to use them to win the next X-Wing World Tournament.

 

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Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

But it is not illegal. You, and others, might moan about it breaking the game, but an advantage taken within the rules of any game is a fair advantage. And one that anyone can use, if they choose to.

If you do not believe that the rules imply that irregularly produced components cannot be used, then you are correct. If you are correct, the someone who opens a pack of FFG X-Wing dice where each of the eight sides of the red dice has a crit symbol would be able to use them to win the next X-Wing World Tournament.

 

And now that your argument has been debunked you stoop to hyperbole.

 

Bravo.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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I really wish that FFG would add "Dice" to the list of things you can demand to share in the tourney rules.  It would solve this issue really quick.

While I don't disagree...I think the superstitious crazy people or people who have placed high at regionals/worlds would riot.

Edited by Killerardvark

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I really wish that FFG would add "Dice" to the list of things you can demand to share in the tourney rules.  It would solve this issue really quick.

While I don't disagree...I think the superstitious crazy people or people who have placed high at regionals/worlds would riot.

My son is like that! I can't touch the dice he is using during a game! If I do, he grabs new ones from the spares!

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I really wish that FFG would add "Dice" to the list of things you can demand to share in the tourney rules.  It would solve this issue really quick.

While I don't disagree...I think the superstitious crazy people or people who have placed high at regionals/worlds would riot.

 

They have no leg to stand on.  It is for the sake of fair play/balance, just like the manufacturing differences in templates/range rulers prompted them to say you could demand to use a single set.

 

I have actually been in a tournament where my dice got crazy hot and my opponent asked me to use his dice.  I didn't have any problem with it under the circumstances.  I continued to roll hot for a turn or two afterward with his dice, then I cooled off.  We both walked away thinking it was funny/amazing as opposed to one person feeling like they got cheated.  I much prefer the former outcome.

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I don't think all FFG dice are created equal. my original dice, and my first dice pack seem to all roll average, while the dice from the new core set seem diffent. They seem to be differnt shades of green/red, and they roll HORRIBLY. so I don't use them.

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I really wish that FFG would add "Dice" to the list of things you can demand to share in the tourney rules.  It would solve this issue really quick.

While I don't disagree...I think the superstitious crazy people or people who have placed high at regionals/worlds would riot.

 

They have no leg to stand on.  It is for the sake of fair play/balance, just like the manufacturing differences in templates/range rulers prompted them to say you could demand to use a single set.

 

I have actually been in a tournament where my dice got crazy hot and my opponent asked me to use his dice.  I didn't have any problem with it under the circumstances.  I continued to roll hot for a turn or two afterward with his dice, then I cooled off.  We both walked away thinking it was funny/amazing as opposed to one person feeling like they got cheated.  I much prefer the former outcome.

 

And see.

 

This is the answer to the full thread. If you're not happy, ask to share components.

 

Easy, peasey, pudding and pie.

 

Cheers

Baaa

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Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

 

But it is not illegal. You, and others, might moan about it breaking the game, but an advantage taken within the rules of any game is a fair advantage. And one that anyone can use, if they choose to.

 

And your second point is moot. If I know my dice are going to land more hits or crits because I've spent ages selecting them, then the chances are, that they will still have an advantage over  ones which I've just pulled out of a starter box. 

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

Hmm... where have I heard this before... 

Oh wait, I know... in online gaming where people exploit bugs or simply oversights by the devs, and always come running with the same type of argument.

Going around looking for, what is essentially broken equipment to play your games with in order to give you an advantage, is indeed very much against the rules.

Sure, it might not say so specifically in the rulebook, but it's implied in the very nature of the game since there are dice and they are supposed to be random.

As for it not being immoral, that's like saying it's not immoral to use loaded dice to win at a craps game. 

It is immoral, because the match is supposed to be played by two individuals that have the same conditions for winning.

You are, essentially, playing with loaded dice.

The fact that you looked for them by testing every dice you could find/buy instead of making them yourself, doesn't change the fact that they're still loaded dice.

(and by "you" I'm saying whoever does that, not you specifically)

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I really wish that FFG would add "Dice" to the list of things you can demand to share in the tourney rules.  It would solve this issue really quick.

While I don't disagree...I think the superstitious crazy people or people who have placed high at regionals/worlds would riot.

My son is like that! I can't touch the dice he is using during a game! If I do, he grabs new ones from the spares!

 

 

I think anyone who's ever played roleplaying games (or just alot of board games that involve dice) develop certain superstitious-like tendencies.

I know that I, for example, always set aside the dice that rolled low in my last roll, to use when I "really" need to roll high. (the not-so-logical reasoning being that if I just rolled a 1 with that dice, it's less likely to roll another 1 on the next roll.)

I have friends that only use die of certain colours. And others that always switch out their die after each roll. And some that have their "lucky" die that they keep for emergencies :P

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Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

But it is not illegal. You, and others, might moan about it breaking the game, but an advantage taken within the rules of any game is a fair advantage. And one that anyone can use, if they choose to.

If you do not believe that the rules imply that irregularly produced components cannot be used, then you are correct. If you are correct, the someone who opens a pack of FFG X-Wing dice where each of the eight sides of the red dice has a crit symbol would be able to use them to win the next X-Wing World Tournament.

 

And now that your argument has been debunked you stoop to hyperbole.

 

Bravo.

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

And you cry hyperbole because your stance produces an outrageous result.

 

Bravo, as they say.

 

That example was not hyperbole. I meant for it to be taken literally. There is no reason why a die with eight crit sides could not be produced and its impact, consistently producing a desirable result as opposed to a rondom result, would not be that different that a die that rolls a hit 90-95% of the time.

 

Regardless, tell me that, under your argument that game components cannot be disqualified because of manufacturing defects, the eight sided critical hit die would be illegal. Or, agree that, if it existed, you would support that die being used at a major tournament.

Edited by Rapture

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...Going around looking for, what is essentially broken equipment to play your games with in order to give you an advantage, is indeed very much against the rules.

Sure, it might not say so specifically in the rulebook.

 

I'm really sorry for being pedantic, but if it's not illegal in the rules, it's not illegal.

 

X-Wing has had more than it's fair share of FAQs where it could have addressed this issue. The fact that it hasn't means that it isn't seen as a problem.

 

That and self contradiction?

 

Cheers

Baaa

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As Hobojebus said, accidentally forget yours, see what the reaction is. Normally people do not care who uses what dice. Unless they have some kind of OCD germ phobia or something.

 

If germ phobia is an issue, I suggest a backgammon dice cup (or a dice tower) and a pair of gloves.

 

Actually, dice towers aren't bad things in general, since they keep dice from flying off the table or into other things. I really need to get around to getting one for myself one of these days... :)

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...Going around looking for, what is essentially broken equipment to play your games with in order to give you an advantage, is indeed very much against the rules.

Sure, it might not say so specifically in the rulebook.

 

I'm really sorry for being pedantic, but if it's not illegal in the rules, it's not illegal.

 

X-Wing has had more than it's fair share of FAQs where it could have addressed this issue. The fact that it hasn't means that it isn't seen as a problem.

 

That and self contradiction?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

 

Please be sure to tell every player you play with everything you say here for fairness sake.  And so you can stop having anyone to play with, ever.  

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And you cry hyperbole because your stance produces an outrageous result.

 

Bravo, as they say.

 

That example was not hyperbole. I meant for it to be taken literally. There is no reason why a die with eight crit sides could not be produced and its impact, consistently producing a desirable result as opposed to a rondom result, would not be that different that a die that rolls a hit 90-95% of the time.

 

Regardless, tell me that, under your argument that game components cannot be disqualified because of manufacturing defects, the eight sided critical hit die would be illegal. Or, agree that, if it existed, you would support that die being used at a major tournament.

 

And again, I say hyperbole.

 

Try turning up at a tournament with an 8-sided crit die.

 

 

 

 

...Going around looking for, what is essentially broken equipment to play your games with in order to give you an advantage, is indeed very much against the rules.

Sure, it might not say so specifically in the rulebook.

 

I'm really sorry for being pedantic, but if it's not illegal in the rules, it's not illegal.

 

X-Wing has had more than it's fair share of FAQs where it could have addressed this issue. The fact that it hasn't means that it isn't seen as a problem.

 

That and self contradiction?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

 

Please be sure to tell every player you play with everything you say here for fairness sake.  And so you can stop having anyone to play with, ever.  

 

And your point is caller?

 

Cheers

Baaa

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Why in the hell would you guys suggest anyone go to all this trouble. If you think someone is cheating, don't play them. Boom. Done. Maybe he'll quit and sell all his stuff cheap. 

 

All these calipers and measuring and pooling dice ideas are goofy.

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We have a player in our group that rolls hits/crits and evades 90-95% of the time.

 

 

So someone stood next to him with a clipboard and noted the result of every single dice he rolled? Else you are pulling numbers out of your ass and human brain is reputed to be very prone to be biased with statistics.

Edited by Wildhorn

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And you cry hyperbole because your stance produces an outrageous result.

 

Bravo, as they say.

 

That example was not hyperbole. I meant for it to be taken literally. There is no reason why a die with eight crit sides could not be produced and its impact, consistently producing a desirable result as opposed to a rondom result, would not be that different that a die that rolls a hit 90-95% of the time.

 

Regardless, tell me that, under your argument that game components cannot be disqualified because of manufacturing defects, the eight sided critical hit die would be illegal. Or, agree that, if it existed, you would support that die being used at a major tournament.

 

And again, I say hyperbole.

 

Try turning up at a tournament with an 8-sided crit die.

 

 

 

 

...Going around looking for, what is essentially broken equipment to play your games with in order to give you an advantage, is indeed very much against the rules.

Sure, it might not say so specifically in the rulebook.

 

I'm really sorry for being pedantic, but if it's not illegal in the rules, it's not illegal.

 

X-Wing has had more than it's fair share of FAQs where it could have addressed this issue. The fact that it hasn't means that it isn't seen as a problem.

 

That and self contradiction?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

 

 

Please be sure to tell every player you play with everything you say here for fairness sake.  And so you can stop having anyone to play with, ever.  

 

And your point is caller?

 

Cheers

Baaa

 

His point is you are being a jacka--.  Did your boss just come by your cube and crao on you so you decided to bring that negativity in here or are you always this way?

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