Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
exinfris

How to check loaded dice

Recommended Posts

I've developed a reputation for god rolling, but I've never sat down and artificially selected for the best ones, and I don't have cheater's dice. I also try to go out of my way to shake them up real good before most rolls.

*shrug* I'd be fine throwing everyone's dice into one big bag, shaking it up, and redistributing them. Unless you have custom dice or regional dice, I see no problem with it. If you're concerned about germs you can wash them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Hobojebus said, accidentally forget yours, see what the reaction is. Normally people do not care who uses what dice. Unless they have some kind of OCD germ phobia or something.

Superstition is also a factor in some cases. I've known people who are very protective of their dice, even when they don't roll unusually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two things:

As mentioned earlier... keep in mind the law of large numbers.  Even non-loaded dice will run hot or cold, and switching dice and getting different results isn't proof one way or the other.

Second, I always take it this way.  If someone needs to cheat in order to beat me in a game, that is a heck of a compliment to my skills. (As TO, I guess I will bring a caliper to the store championship I'm running... add it to the damage deck checks I'm going to do."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only real way to find out is to do some Chi-squared tests by rolling his dice repeatedly.  Compare them to other dice.  The salt water trick doesn't work that well.  I did that for one of my d20s, and it was always floating up on the '20'.  I did a chi-squared test on the die, rolled it a couple hundred times or so, and it showed no bias on the 20 whatsoever.  If anything it was biased to the '14'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can think of a reason why a guy might not let you check perfectly legitimate dice: if he's insulted.

 

So I wouldn't suggest to this guy that you think he's a cheater. If you want to test his dice, say that you're concerned that they were not manufactured properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only real way to find out is to do some Chi-squared tests by rolling his dice repeatedly.  Compare them to other dice.  The salt water trick doesn't work that well.  I did that for one of my d20s, and it was always floating up on the '20'.  I did a chi-squared test on the die, rolled it a couple hundred times or so, and it showed no bias on the 20 whatsoever.  If anything it was biased to the '14'.

This is the problem with injection molded dice. Because the numbers or icons are part of the metal die face the amount of material displaced varies unless it was considered when the metal die face was machined. I'm curious what number is opposite the "20" face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As Hobojebus said, accidentally forget yours, see what the reaction is. Normally people do not care who uses what dice. Unless they have some kind of OCD germ phobia or something.

Superstition is also a factor in some cases. I've known people who are very protective of their dice, even when they don't roll unusually.

 

That just because you don't want your dice getting too friendly with someone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can think of a reason why a guy might not let you check perfectly legitimate dice: if he's insulted.

So I wouldn't suggest to this guy that you think he's a cheater. If you want to test his dice, say that you're concerned that they were not manufactured properly.

If someone is going to get insulted over a simple request to change dice, he's either a cheater or just an *******. Why are you getting insulted if you're not cheating? Seriously, stop being an unreasonable *******. Don't submit to someone like that and instead seek to irritate them.

If you're cheating and you don't want your dice to be checked, that's at least understandable. I'd almost rather play against a cheater than someone who is just an *******. Cheating in this game is at least kind of funny, and I could have a laugh about it as the TO is called over.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We have a player in our group that rolls hits/crits and evades 90-95% of the time.

What method did you use to determine that 90-95% data?

Maybe he has gotten lucky and picked up a set of extremely lucky dice.

"Lucky" objects do not exist in real life.

 

They do in X-Wing - the dice we are sold aren't of too good quality and may sometimes roll inconsistently. Ironicaly FFG forbids 3rd party dice at tournaments, which most of the time are better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

As Hobojebus said, accidentally forget yours, see what the reaction is. Normally people do not care who uses what dice. Unless they have some kind of OCD germ phobia or something.

Superstition is also a factor in some cases. I've known people who are very protective of their dice, even when they don't roll unusually.

 

That just because you don't want your dice getting too friendly with someone else.

 

There was a guy at the Chicago Regionals last year that got angry at his dice, threw them away, and bought new dice on the spot. Later he nearly flipped out thinking someone else rolled one of his dice. I can't imagine living like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had someone joke that my dice had some sort of magic spell cast on them. Never to the point that someone wanted to check them though I would gladly let someone have a look.

 

I do have one evade die that has a divit taken out of one of the corners. I avoid bringing it to tournaments just because I'm sure someone might flip out if they saw it. I have not done any statistical analysis on it though it would be interesting to see what happens with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of the 12 green dice I have, I am certain 3 of them roll Evades most of the time.

To be fair I mix em back up after playing BUT... I try to sort them out during play and roll those dice first. They are my "lucky" dice. So I believe there are manufacturing differences. (Bummer since some of my red dice seem to NEVER roll Crits.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm accused of lucky dice all the time. But, sometimes they are hot and others they are cold and it is usually against the same players. I always roll bad dice vs Dan and always roll lucky dice vs John. There is no logic so I just have fun with it.

In your case try using ships and mods that limit the amount of green dice rolled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as the 90-95% data goes. One of our members is a mathematical genius, he does work at a nuclear power station not far from here. He sat and watched this guy play several games over a month time frame, and recorded his rolls (he did it under the guise of writing a blog on tactics, which he did), he said that the probability of the number of hits/crits/evades this guy rolls is near impossible.

I like the idea of just telling him that we as a group are uncomfortable playing him with his current dice set, and that we feel that his dice may have manufacturing issues. He'll I'll even purchase a couple dice sets for him to replace his current ones.

He's been pretty gracious about letting us check out his dice, so there is a good chance he's not a cheater.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Talk to the player like the grown adult I assume you to be. Don't accuse him, have a conversation that starts 'some of our group is concerned that your dice might have some manufacturing defects'. Then play a few games with them, and actually record the results, it's very easy to get confirmation bias in this situation because you remember the outliers and forget the average results. If it does seem like his dice are weighted or he's worked out an unfair rolling technique, talk to him again, more seriously this time.

It's a harder row to hoe, but in the long run it will be better to talk like adults and get problems out in the open rather than being duplicitous.

 

 

...your practicality and adult behavior sicken me. That's no way to hunt witches. I say, cleanse the witch with fire! If he does not burn, he's a witch, and you're well within your rights to hang him and confiscate his dice. That's just good science.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as the 90-95% data goes. One of our members is a mathematical genius, he does work at a nuclear power station not far from here. He sat and watched this guy play several games over a month time frame, and recorded his rolls (he did it under the guise of writing a blog on tactics, which he did), he said that the probability of the number of hits/crits/evades this guy rolls is near impossible.

I like the idea of just telling him that we as a group are uncomfortable playing him with his current dice set, and that we feel that his dice may have manufacturing issues. He'll I'll even purchase a couple dice sets for him to replace his current ones.

He's been pretty gracious about letting us check out his dice, so there is a good chance he's not a cheater.

If the whole group is upset about this, I would propose that everyone in the group put their dice together, mix thoroughly, and redistribute. If your suspect actually has weighted dice (whether due to manufacturing defect or intentionally), those dice will be divided among many players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as the 90-95% data goes. One of our members is a mathematical genius, he does work at a nuclear power station not far from here. He sat and watched this guy play several games over a month time frame, and recorded his rolls (he did it under the guise of writing a blog on tactics, which he did), he said that the probability of the number of hits/crits/evades this guy rolls is near impossible.

I like the idea of just telling him that we as a group are uncomfortable playing him with his current dice set, and that we feel that his dice may have manufacturing issues. He'll I'll even purchase a couple dice sets for him to replace his current ones.

He's been pretty gracious about letting us check out his dice, so there is a good chance he's not a cheater.

People can learn to throw dice in a way which influences the outcome.

 

If he's letting everyone see his dice and throw them around, then he ain't cheating.

 

Cheers

Baaa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He said that other people have rolled the dice in question and gotten the same (perceived) 90-95% rates. The only real way to see if something is up with the dice is to roll them 80-100 times and spread sheet the result against a control set of dice (a set of dice you know aren't tampered with).

If there is a huge difference, then there is something wrong with the dice.

Edited by HistoryGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Talk to the player like the grown adult I assume you to be. Don't accuse him, have a conversation that starts 'some of our group is concerned that your dice might have some manufacturing defects'. Then play a few games with them, and actually record the results, it's very easy to get confirmation bias in this situation because you remember the outliers and forget the average results. If it does seem like his dice are weighted or he's worked out an unfair rolling technique, talk to him again, more seriously this time.

It's a harder row to hoe, but in the long run it will be better to talk like adults and get problems out in the open rather than being duplicitous.

 

 

...your practicality and adult behavior sicken me. That's no way to hunt witches. I say, cleanse the witch with fire! If he does not burn, he's a witch, and you're well within your rights to hang him and confiscate his dice. That's just good science.

 

I thought ducking in salt water was the traditional way to hunt dice witches :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He said that other people have rolled the dice in question and gotten the same (perceived) 90-95% rates. The only real way to see if something is up with the dice is to roll them 80-100 times and spread sheet the result against a control set of dice (a set of dice you know aren't tampered with).

If there is a huge difference, then there is something wrong with the dice.

It could simply be that he's went through loads of different die to find ones that due to the manufacturing process are not properly balanced. Which is neither illegal or immoral.

 

If this is the case you're asking to test his dice, which have been selected (not tampered with) against another set of dice which have not been tampered with. What are you going to prove?

 

Cheers

Baaa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He said that other people have rolled the dice in question and gotten the same (perceived) 90-95% rates. The only real way to see if something is up with the dice is to roll them 80-100 times and spread sheet the result against a control set of dice (a set of dice you know aren't tampered with).

If there is a huge difference, then there is something wrong with the dice.

Too few rolls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is neither illegal or immoral.

Illegal as in against the rules? Maybe not in violation of an explicit rule, but attempting to utalize a game piece that modifies the distribution of outcomes that are meant to be random breaks the game.

Using a die that rolls more hits because of a manufacturing defect has the same impact as using a die that was weighted to roll more hits.

Edited by Rapture

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple things…

 

1 If you learn to beat loaded dice guy, Normal games should be a cake walk.

2 Don’t play loaded dice guy.

 

I do think that FFG has a market if they would make some premium dice. I’d pay some money for some precision, clear, larger dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...