exinfris 43 Posted February 19, 2016 We have a player in our group that rolls hits/crits and evades 90-95% of the time. Some have speculated that he has altered his dice somehow, but for the life of us can't figure out how. He has even allowed us to inspect his dice after someone called foul. There's no marks or blemishes on the dice. In fact a couple people rolled the dice several times and they came up hits/crits and evades 90-95% of the time for them as well. Maybe he has gotten lucky and picked up a set of extremely lucky dice. But for a set of dice to never go cold once seems a little odd to most of us. Is there a way we can check them other than looking for the tell tale marks of being tampered with? I know back in the day you could order loaded dice (had a guy in my barracks do that with his craps dice, got the crap beaten out of him when it was discovered he luck was bought from a catalog), or drill holes and add weight to them to load them yourself. One of the other guys said he has looked online for loaded x wing dice (not to use, but to see if it's possible that this individual maybe bought some) but to no avail. Sorry this is so long winded. Had a rather hectic day and I'm very tired. Bottom line is...how can we check, and how did he do it, so we can call him on it if he is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caspanova 105 Posted February 19, 2016 Get a bandsaw and cut them in half, that is the best way to see if someone has tampered with them internally.There are also mentions of "bucket tests" but they are mainly for D6s I think. 2 Shenannigan and Fuzzywookie reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StainlessSteel 407 Posted February 19, 2016 Before you cut them in half, you can try the salt water trick. It works well for D20s, may not work as well for the D8s, but it's worth a shot. 6 Click5, Grumpy54, Dej2 and 3 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsondaboy 793 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Another way people use to make loaded dice is to put them in hot water or microwave. You can try to put the dice in question next to dice you know they haven't been tampered with. If the dice are altered, they will stand a few millimeters lower than the original ones, if you have them facing the loaded side. Just be careful though, because if there are no obvious changes in the dice dimensions, he might not be the one responsible for the dice. The salt water trick that others mention, will also tell you if the dice are not properly balanced. That doesn't exclude the possibility they were manufactured like that. Edited February 19, 2016 by tsondaboy 2 testobviouslyfalse and Grumpy54 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arterial Spray 235 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Float them in salt water.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI3N4Qg-JZMWhen dice are formed they frequently have small bubbles and inconsistencies internally which can alter the ballance subtly. This method won't tell you what the dice will roll, but itll indicate if there is a ballance issue.This is why a lot of dice nuts ban any dice which arnt clear (at least in games which dont have specific official dice made for the game like x wing). Edited February 19, 2016 by Arterial Spray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heliodorus04 166 Posted February 19, 2016 See if you're opponent will let you roll them...If he won't, they're loaded. 17 Sir Orrin, THEMANONTHEM00N, Wayne Argabright and 14 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RsRabin 28 Posted February 19, 2016 If you don't get it figured out just see if you can both roll from the same pool when you play that player? 4 ForceSensitive, vtarin, Rogue Dakotan and 1 other reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uumbuku 220 Posted February 19, 2016 Get a fresh set of dice. Distract the player and swap them over. See if the winning streak continues. If it does its not the dice. If it doesn't then the dice are weighted but this does not mean the player has altered them. Has anyone adapted the chi square statistical method for x wing dice? I imagine you would have to mark the dice faces to do it properly. Preferably with a removable marker pen. 3 Tervlon, polmoneys and OddballE8 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StainlessSteel 407 Posted February 19, 2016 Get a fresh set of dice. Distract the player and swap them over. See if the winning streak continues. If it does its not the dice. If it doesn't then the dice are weighted but this does not mean the player has altered them. Dastardly! I like it! 2 Boba Rick and ThatJakeGuy reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StarWarsDad1138 107 Posted February 19, 2016 Check the faces. IIRC, the faces are spaced out to help minimize the effect of accidentally manufacturing loaded dice. If the faces are off, that would be an indicator of alteration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thespaceinvader 17,438 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Get a fresh set of dice. Distract the player and swap them over. See if the winning streak continues. If it does its not the dice. If it doesn't then the dice are weighted but this does not mean the player has altered them. Don't do this. Talk to the player like the grown adult I assume you to be. Don't accuse him, have a conversation that starts 'some of our group is concerned that your dice might have some manufacturing defects'. Then play a few games with them, and actually record the results, it's very easy to get confirmation bias in this situation because you remember the outliers and forget the average results. If it does seem like his dice are weighted or he's worked out an unfair rolling technique, talk to him again, more seriously this time. It's a harder row to hoe, but in the long run it will be better to talk like adults and get problems out in the open rather than being duplicitous. Edited February 19, 2016 by thespaceinvader 44 Grumpy54, 7falcon7wings7, Papamambo and 41 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stoneface 3,689 Posted February 19, 2016 Use a set of micrometers or calipers and check point to point (longwise) and the four common sides and compare them to a fresh set of dice. Also look at the faces with a low angled light. This should show any dips in the faces possibly indicating the presence of a void. A "short shot" during the molding process. This might happen if the bins holding the plastic pellets were allowed to run low or between die changes. An 'air bubble' if you will. I'm pretty sure that the dice are injection molded and tumbled to remove the molding seam. That's why the edges are rounded. Casino dice are machined hence the sharp corners. Finally, remember the Law of Large Numbers. Your die testing may well be within the parameters of randomness and you haven't rolled the dice enough times to truly get an adequate sample size. If you're going to cut his dice in half, you're going to have to replace them. ;-) Also, if you use the salt water trick remember the icons are stamped into the faces of the dice and the amount of plastic displaced may not be the same. You're also dealing with blank faces, which when floated, should be heavier than the stamped faces. There a lot of variables to consider and even if you find a "discrepancy" it may or may not have an effect on the die roll. 1 AdmiralNelson reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagonet 7,246 Posted February 19, 2016 And, whatever you do, don't forget to shout "YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BRING BALANCE TO THE DICE!" at every opportunity. 41 xanderf, Sergeant SPA5, NotBatman and 38 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joe Boss Red Seven 11,291 Posted February 19, 2016 Dat Nuke... :lol: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chucknuckle 2,811 Posted February 19, 2016 Honestly, if you've already examined his dice and found nothing wrong, then just tell him you don't want to play any more. Because by going back to investigate them again, that's exactly what you're saying. The subtext is effectively "We know you're cheating, we just want to figure out how" and that's a pretty volatile situation to find yourself in. If you've already examined his dice then I say just let it go. If necessary then keep a record of your matches and record his dice results against the statistical averages, but I'm not sure I'd bother. 6 Rodafowa, loki_tbc, Jremy75 and 3 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hujoe Bigs 2,066 Posted February 19, 2016 Salt water trick has been proven ineffective on 8 sided dice. Not sure why people keep saying to use it. Have him switch dice or use his dice and see if the games still go the same way. I know when I play people think the regional sets I have are weighted better, I let them roll them, usually to their detriment. 3 Vorpal Sword, Grayfax and TasteTheRainbow reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sbloom141 751 Posted February 19, 2016 It sounds like he's just lucky. 1 Antipodean Ork reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TasteTheRainbow 8,508 Posted February 19, 2016 Does he use fcs a lot? Human perception is quite poor at detecting randomness. 11 ID X T, VaynMaanen, w1ndst0rm and 8 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antipodean Ork 78 Posted February 19, 2016 In two other systems I played over the years (ancients and Flames of War) it was always a giveaway if you just scooped up dice and rolled the lot. and your opponent objected. I make a point, if my dice are rolling hot, to let my opponent use them too. After all, they are all red and green at the end of a game. As long as I have the same number as when I started, it shouldn't matter. 3 player1399050, Jremy75 and FatherKnowsBest reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hobojebus 11,341 Posted February 19, 2016 Yeah just say you have to share the dice if they are weighted you'll equal things out pretty fast. 4 Hida77, thatdave, player1399050 and 1 other reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OddballE8 1,241 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Just insist that everyone playing against him use his die and not their own. (or whatever version of that... make a house rule that when playing, nobody uses their own dice, but instead one of the players' dice will be used by both parties)That way, even if his dice were a factory "mistake", then it would still even out.If he objects, then he's probably tampered with the dice. (and in that case, just refuse to play with him) Edited February 19, 2016 by OddballE8 3 thatdave, Jremy75 and Hida77 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rapture 499 Posted February 19, 2016 We have a player in our group that rolls hits/crits and evades 90-95% of the time.What method did you use to determine that 90-95% data?Maybe he has gotten lucky and picked up a set of extremely lucky dice."Lucky" objects do not exist in real life. 5 Boba Rick, polmoneys, DagobahDave and 2 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kalandros 401 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Back in 2008 I believe, we had a Warhammer tournament. One guy played the Dwarves with the "Anvil of Doom" that required a 4+ to activate its greater power on a D6 (or suffer the consequence of rolling 1,2,3) - he never failed. This activated one of 3 effects, he chose the one that dealt 2D6 hits - he never got below 8. One of the tournament judges confronted him by asking for his dice and the guy refused. Bam, expelled - his dice were checked anyway and they were dollar store cheat dice - there were no 1 2 3 on those D6s, only 4,4,5,5,6,6. The guy even had his kid with him that day when he got kicked out. Mighty humiliation. Bit harder to detect loaded D8s though. Edited February 19, 2016 by Kalandros 1 Sergeant SPA5 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Archangelspiv 1,755 Posted February 19, 2016 As Hobojebus said, accidentally forget yours, see what the reaction is. Normally people do not care who uses what dice. Unless they have some kind of OCD germ phobia or something. 1 BlackSunSyn reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mynock Delta 652 Posted February 19, 2016 Does he use fcs a lot? Human perception is quite poor at detecting randomness. This. If you're really concerned, you need to observe his games and keep objective data to see if his outcomes are above the norm in a sufficiently large sample size. That said, the best way to check is what Stoneface said: calipers. Remember that X-Wing dice have bubbles inside them, and you could conceivably assemble a set of "favorable" dice. Even then though, it wouldn't be enough to register in a statistically meaningful way. Anyone using these to cheat would also have to become proficient at rolling them in a way to exploit the minuscule weight variances to have favorable outcomes above the norm. At this point, it's WAY easier to just get better at X-Wing. 8 catachanninja, thatdave, Sbloom141 and 5 others reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites