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Blail Blerg

Taskforce Armada Format! 200 pt 3x3 area

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5 hours ago, Bakura83 said:

iirc we every ended on 450-550*.  No one felt left behind.  The other thing is, if you start at 400 and go from there, choosing to scrap your fleet to start fresh can leave you 100+ points behind your opponent.  When we started at 200 we had a rule that you started a new fleet at the average fleet total or 400pts, which ever was less.  That meant that the newer players could afford to completely drool their entire fleet all the way up to the final 3rd of the campaign and still have a fighting chance.

Just FYI - we played over 3 days, I’ve never done a campaign as a once a week/fortnight/month thing.

*We didn’t have a limit on how fleets grew.  If you got the points, you could spend them.

Edit:

We are considering using Siege of the Arkanis Sector for our next one, or perhaps borrowing some elements like no scarring, just either jump out or your ship is gone forever.  (You can use the model again, but any unique upgrades like a title it had are toast).  

We are also toying with the idea of no unique squadrons alllowed until you have gotten a generic squadron to actually kill something AND survive a battle.

Finally, we are big fans of Holdfast Pacific/Atlantic, a WW2 naval game that has a really cool turn reinforcement mechanic where you get specific ships each turn (as they were irl built as the war progressed), and you can repair damaged ships but once they are gone they are gone, so you really have to choose how and when to send in your best ships.  

I would love to find a way to implement this in Armada, for example I own 3 ISDs total, my friend owns two more, limit the Imperials to only 5 IsD’s Ever between 3 people, stagger when they become available, and suddenly there is a whole new resource management/grand admiral strategy level to your Corellian Campaign.

 

Cool, I like the idea for starting a new fleet. Also the unique squadron thing, thats interesting. 

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On 11/5/2018 at 1:21 PM, Bakura83 said:

iirc we every ended on 450-550*.  No one felt left behind.  The other thing is, if you start at 400 and go from there, choosing to scrap your fleet to start fresh can leave you 100+ points behind your opponent.  When we started at 200 we had a rule that you started a new fleet at the average fleet total or 400pts, which ever was less.  That meant that the newer players could afford to completely drool their entire fleet all the way up to the final 3rd of the campaign and still have a fighting chance.

Just FYI - we played over 3 days, I’ve never done a campaign as a once a week/fortnight/month thing.

*We didn’t have a limit on how fleets grew.  If you got the points, you could spend them.

Edit:

We are considering using Siege of the Arkanis Sector for our next one, or perhaps borrowing some elements like no scarring, just either jump out or your ship is gone forever.  (You can use the model again, but any unique upgrades like a title it had are toast).  

We are also toying with the idea of no unique squadrons alllowed until you have gotten a generic squadron to actually kill something AND survive a battle.

Finally, we are big fans of Holdfast Pacific/Atlantic, a WW2 naval game that has a really cool turn reinforcement mechanic where you get specific ships each turn (as they were irl built as the war progressed), and you can repair damaged ships but once they are gone they are gone, so you really have to choose how and when to send in your best ships.  

I would love to find a way to implement this in Armada, for example I own 3 ISDs total, my friend owns two more, limit the Imperials to only 5 IsD’s Ever between 3 people, stagger when they become available, and suddenly there is a whole new resource management/grand admiral strategy level to your Corellian Campaign.

 

I really want to hear about Holdfast. And more on how the 200->550 fleets grew. FFG games are really low on fleet building and personal progression feeling. 

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3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I really want to hear about Holdfast. And more on how the 200->550 fleets grew. FFG games are really low on fleet building and personal progression feeling. 

Honestly I didn’t keep detailed records (foolish mistake) I just remember that no one snowballed.

Hold fast is great.  If you look at the picture you’ll see a chart inside the box lid, basically each ship is a little one-sided block of wood with the stats of each ship on it, and obviously each ship is a unique name on its block and comes in between turn 2 and 8 based on when it was historically launched or reached the Pacific theatre.

So in other words you know how many ships are in each enemy fleet, but not what they are - they are just “blips on the radar” until you actually engage.  Another excellent mechanic is that each player has little blocks of wood the represent an entire task force, so you can see how many ships are in each task force but you have no idea which blocks are task forces, so you can attack a 2-block fleet and suddenly realise that one of those blocks is a task force of 8 ships!

Obviously the historical aspect is void for Star Wars, but I really like the idea of knowing that across the campaign you will only have a total of 5 ISD hulls coming (for example) which 3 players have to share, which will arrive in instalments.  It would add an awesome strategic element to an already tactically excellent game.  Obviously it would need balancing.

1E7B6DD9-D070-4910-9757-30CA223C4E1A.jpeg

Edited by Bakura83

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On 11/8/2018 at 4:56 AM, Bakura83 said:

Honestly I didn’t keep detailed records (foolish mistake) I just remember that no one snowballed.

Hold fast is great.  If you look at the picture you’ll see a chart inside the box lid, basically each ship is a little one-sided block of wood with the stats of each ship on it, and obviously each ship is a unique name on its block and comes in between turn 2 and 8 based on when it was historically launched or reached the Pacific theatre.

So in other words you know how many ships are in each enemy fleet, but not what they are - they are just “blips on the radar” until you actually engage.  Another excellent mechanic is that each player has little blocks of wood the represent an entire task force, so you can see how many ships are in each task force but you have no idea which blocks are task forces, so you can attack a 2-block fleet and suddenly realise that one of those blocks is a task force of 8 ships!

Obviously the historical aspect is void for Star Wars, but I really like the idea of knowing that across the campaign you will only have a total of 5 ISD hulls coming (for example) which 3 players have to share, which will arrive in instalments.  It would add an awesome strategic element to an already tactically excellent game.  Obviously it would need balancing.

1E7B6DD9-D070-4910-9757-30CA223C4E1A.jpeg

Huh wanted to look into this more for developing more campaign style play 

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16 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Huh wanted to look into this more for developing more campaign style play 

I’m still working on the project, I actually worked on some of the components today.  We won’t be playing until August so there is still time to play around with ideas.

We are going to be combining it with x-wing to include some x-wing players, more in that later.

Edited by Bakura83

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Just getting back into Armada after an 18+ month long haitus (long story). I started with this format just to ease back into things and had a blast. I have two copies of everything in wave 1, a single copy of wave 2, and a smattering of later ships (MC-30 and Arquittens). I've been able to recreate a few of the fleets posted in this thread, or a close enough approximation, and have had a blast. 

I've even created some of my own fleets (see below) and had some fun. I'm still figuring out which objectives make sense with which fleets and would appreciate feedback/help. 

It's a great way to try out new commanders and  strategies without a big time investment.

I too am interested in learning more about Holdfast. I've found a few things, but nothing like a clear comprehensive review like I have seen for other games. 

I'm always down for ways to add longevity to Armada games. One idea I saw on these forums was starting with generic ships and fighters, and only allowing aces/titles if they survive. 

Not sure how to really implement this (I really should probably just buy CC) with my limited fleet but am open to ideas. 

 

Name: No one flies VSD anymore? What?
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Admiral Screed

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Minefields

Victory I (73)
• Admiral Screed (26)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
= 104 Points

Raider I (44)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
= 49 Points

Squadrons:
• Darth Vader (21)
• Major Rhymer (16)
• TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
= 45 Points

Total Points: 198

 

Name: Ackbar AF
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Fire Lanes
Navigation: Minefields

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Admiral Ackbar (38)
• Enhanced Armament (10)
= 129 Points

CR90 Corvette A (44)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
= 51 Points

Squadrons:
• Luke Skywalker (20)
= 20 Points

Total Points: 200

Edited by FortyInRed
Added actual fleets

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Glad you got your test and introduction mileage @FortyInRed! Isn’t it so easy to get started playing?? :) 

Yeah this is pretty easy to adapt for campaigns that add points. You may need some sort of anti snowball limitation though. As is the case with all campaigns. 

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Hi all,

Two thoughts regarding this format that I'd like your feedback on:

1.) A potential solution to the "Large Ship Problem

 - This format largely works because you take a well-balanced format and just divide most things in half. Generally speaking this works but scoring is hard because you get all or none of the points you destroy. A Motti ISD is really hard to destroy with 200 pts so the game is biased towards tanky ships right now.

- what if we just add the "half rule" to scoring for all ships, as was proposed for large ships only earlier in this thread?

 - Scoring: you half the points, rounded up, for every ship that has received half as many damage cards as it's hull value, rounded up. For example a ship with 4 hull will be scored if it has 2 damage cards, while a ship with 5 hull requires 3 damage cards to score.

2.) A potential way to add a "strategic" aspect to this format. Players battle over a larger map for control of sectors. 

 - What if we start with a really simple 7-cell hex grid? Each sector in the grid is adjacent to at least two others, meaning it is hard to box someone in.

- Sectors are named with a letter, A, B or C denoting their row, and a number denoting their position from left to right.

 - so the layout is

 -   A1  A2

B1    B2    B3

     C1    C2

- players start with 100 pts of generic ships and fighters, no upgrades, with one player starting in B1 and the other in B3. The first player to reach 300 victory points wins.

- players will take turns consisting of three phases: 1.) Attack / Defend 2.) Building 3.) Reinforcement

- attack / defend - each player may declare one sector adjacent to a sector containing  their units to "attack". Only sectors containing enemy units or no units may be attacked. The other player may elect to yield an unoccupied sector, retreat from an occupied sector to an adjacent friendly sector, or defend with the units present in sector. When retreating, the defending player may elect 5 movement points' worth of units to withdraw to a nearby friendly sector. See "Reinforcement" below for rules on movement between sectors. All remaining units are considered destroyed and the point value of those units are given to the opposing player as victory points. Attacks are resolved using a "Taskforce Format" battle with the defender picking the objective. If neither player had units in the sector previously, pick an objective randomly, following "Taskforce Format" modifications. Each ship that scores a kill on another ship, or squadron that kills another squadron or ship, receives an objective token. If the ship or squadron remains undestroyed at the end of the battle, it is eligible for promotion during the next "Building" phase. Scoring: Each player scores as many victory points as units destroyed. For ships, award half the total points of a ship that received half as many damage cards as it's hull value, rounding up. For example, you score half the total cost in victory points of a ship with 5 hull points if it has 3 or more damage cards.  For a ship with 6 hull points, it needs at least 3 damage cards to be scored. Follow normal "Taskforce Format" modifications to objective rules and points values. Attacker must destroy all defending units to claim control of the sector, winning is not sufficient to claim a sector.

- Building - each player is awarded 50 points  for the first sector they control, and 25 points for each additional sectors they control. Players may use these points to purchase additional ships (no upgrades or titles), generic squadrons, or to "promote" a ship or squadron that received an objective token previously. Promotions can executed be swapping a generic fighter for an ace card,  adding a title card for a ship, assigning a fleet commander or adding a single eligible upgrade to a ship. The cost of the promotion must be paid immediately from build points currently available to the player. Any build points not spent are discarded. Once a ship has been promoted, remove the objective token, otherwise leave it for later rounds. All ships start at the the starting locations (B1 or B3) or if that is not possible, in the sector containing the smallest friendly fleet.

- Reinforcement - each player is allocation 10 "movement" points. A single movement point allows a single squadron or command-1 ship to be moved to one adjacent sector containing friendly units. You may not move into a neutral sector or one containing enemy units in this phase. A command-2 ship requires 2 movement points, command-3 requires 3 movement points. Etc

 

Edited by FortyInRed
Typos

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4 hours ago, FortyInRed said:

1.) A potential solution to the "Large Ship Problem

 - This format largely works because you take a well-balanced format and just divide most things in half. Generally speaking this works but scoring is hard because you get all or none of the points you destroy. A Motti ISD is really hard to destroy with 200 pts so the game is biased towards tanky ships right now.

- what if we just add the "half rule" to scoring for all ships, as was proposed for large ships only earlier in this thread?

I've been meaning to post this for a long time, but didn't want to push it cuz it would be an extra rule. But I think its really necessary. 

 

Can I put the call out to you all lovely play-users to collect me some data? I want 25 or so games of varying match ups. I note that for instance, Yavaris + Transport + multi-role bombers has a really hard time vs Motti ISD + Firesprays. 

 

I think a half point rule for larges is pretty much required nowadays. 

4 hours ago, FortyInRed said:

2.) A potential way to add a "strategic" aspect to this format. Players battle over a larger map for control of sectors. 

This sounds cool but really complicated. Can you explain more? 

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3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This sounds cool but really complicated. Can you explain more? 

Sure, I can try at least!

What I'm going for is some way for Armada games to have influence and meaning beyond a series of unrelated games. Similar to how Risk Legacy works, after each game, the game parameters would change as a direct result of players' actions. Ships that were successful in previous battles would be rewarded. Sectors that were conquered/occupied can allow you to field a larger fleet. I haven't played CC, but I imagine it might be similar in concept.

The specifics of how this gets implemented could vary, the main points i was trying to convey was:

  • A structure through which individual games of Armada could be linked together into a larger game
  • A mechanism through which units (ships and squadrons) would gain veterancy through their actions in previous games.  A ship that destroys another, and lives to tell the story, gets rewarded with a title, upgrade, or commander. Similar for a fighter squadron. The background for this would be that perhaps this was this hotshot pilot called "Howlrunner" who to date hasn't done anything, but after a battle for <X> sector, she revealed her talents. 
  • A way to force players to make difficult decisions when fleet building. This isn't always a "build the biggest and best fleet you can with unlimited time to plan", but rather a "do the best you can with the options you have available"

I think Task Force is a good way to resolve conflicts/battles over a sector because the game are usually faster. So in a few hours, you could conceivably complete several inter-related games of Task Force, each time feeling like your actions have meaning beyond just that one isolated battle.

Does that help answer what I was going after, or did you have questions on specific implementations?

Note that I haven't tried this yet, and currently don't have any other players to play with (so I play both sides). 

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4 hours ago, FortyInRed said:

Sure, I can try at least!

What I'm going for is some way for Armada games to have influence and meaning beyond a series of unrelated games. Similar to how Risk Legacy works, after each game, the game parameters would change as a direct result of players' actions. Ships that were successful in previous battles would be rewarded. Sectors that were conquered/occupied can allow you to field a larger fleet. I haven't played CC, but I imagine it might be similar in concept.

The specifics of how this gets implemented could vary, the main points i was trying to convey was:

  • A structure through which individual games of Armada could be linked together into a larger game
  • A mechanism through which units (ships and squadrons) would gain veterancy through their actions in previous games.  A ship that destroys another, and lives to tell the story, gets rewarded with a title, upgrade, or commander. Similar for a fighter squadron. The background for this would be that perhaps this was this hotshot pilot called "Howlrunner" who to date hasn't done anything, but after a battle for <X> sector, she revealed her talents. 
  • A way to force players to make difficult decisions when fleet building. This isn't always a "build the biggest and best fleet you can with unlimited time to plan", but rather a "do the best you can with the options you have available"

I think Task Force is a good way to resolve conflicts/battles over a sector because the game are usually faster. So in a few hours, you could conceivably complete several inter-related games of Task Force, each time feeling like your actions have meaning beyond just that one isolated battle.

Does that help answer what I was going after, or did you have questions on specific implementations?

Note that I haven't tried this yet, and currently don't have any other players to play with (so I play both sides). 

Yes, that's great. But the main question is just making your idea easier to understand. Its a difficult idea. What's good about this set up? 

One of the features of Taskforce is ease to learn. There's only a few minor added rules. But generally, everything works like: Keep the larger half. 

 

I think it's interesting at this point to develop some sort of generic campaign system that 1. doesn't snowball, 2. Can fit in 1-1.5 pages at most. including pretty much all required rule clarifications. 

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I don't want to steal anyone's thunder here, so if this idea should go elsewhere that's fine. I always like the story and narrative in games, which is lacking in many games of Armada. Why are you firing at certain targets? Who owns that outpost you are contesting? Why are those mines there?

 

I find myself drawn to scenario-based matches, like those guys who recreated Scarif complete with Death Star and uploading plans. 

 

What I'm going for here is a story behind how Defiance earns it's name. Or where Rhymer sets himself apart from other bomber pilots. By forcing you to "earn" titles, upgrades, and commanders you can incorporate a story. 

 

What I like about Task Force is that it's a quick enough game that I can tell one or maybe even two chapters of this story in an afternoon.

Does that help explain what I'm after?

I'm not set on a particular group of rules. What I posted above was just what I came up with one day while cleaning the house. 

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