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Is Deep Elf Riposte OP?

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I was just wondering about Deep Elf Riposte, and i cannot find the answer anywhere. The ability states:

 

"Each time an adjacent figure resolves an attack that affects this monster, that figure suffers damage equal to the defense results; if the attack is a miss, the figure suffers damage equal to the damage rolled instead."

 

Let's say I was attacked by an adjacent hero. I roll 2 shields on my grey die, next I use Dark Fortitude which gives me another 2 shields, and after that I play Armor of Darkness which gives me yet another 2 shields. Having 6 shields in the end, does this mean the attacking hero suffers 6 damage or only 2 from the initial 2 shields?

 

I did not point out the whole possibilities of adding shields for the Elf. But the point is that If it damages hero for the whole sum, Deep Elf can easily make the Hero kill himself.

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As has been said,

 

Defense roll = defense results = shield initial roll+shields from other abilities

 

and 

 

Attack roll = attack results = damage, surges, and range from initial roll + other abilities (note, surges can be converted into damage and range)

 

Essentially, the attack results are whatever the affected figures have to handle, the defense results is how they handle it, and the damage dealt is the difference.

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Are you sure about this? I mean, I'd find different "rolled" from "results". I know FFG is inconsistent in this kind, but, why else usign different wording then? I thought "defense rolled" is what you can see on the dice, and "defense results" the total sum.

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Are you sure about this? I mean, I'd find different "rolled" from "results". I know FFG is inconsistent in this kind, but, why else usign different wording then? I thought "defense rolled" is what you can see on the dice, and "defense results" the total sum.

 

Your results are what you roll plus whatever effects either add or subtract shields and/or hearts.

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I find no distinction in effect between "defense roll" and "defense results".

You roll defense dice, which gives you your initial defense results. Then, abilities (like Trenloe's hero ability) change the roll results.

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Sorry to dig up this old thread but I have a question linked to it ..

So imagine the following example :

Hero uses ability that gives + 1 [Heart] (like Rage, dark elf tracked, Challenge, ... could also be more than one)

Hero attacks the Master Deep Elf with a Blue Red attack
Dices resultes are X and 2[Hearts]  and 1[Shield] for the Elf

Now the question : How many [Hearths] will the hero suffer from Riposte ? 2 or 3 ?

In short the question is when do the damages given by abilities apply ? and do they apply even if the attack is a miss ?

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Zaltyre wrote the roll includes the modifications. So it would be three wounds. Two from the hearts on the red die and plus one from the ability (rage).

The defense roll wouldn't matter in this case because the card says "instead".

 

Though I don't know if there was an errata or another answer in the crrg.

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Posted (edited)

Zaltyre was answering to a question where the attack was successfull, if the attack is a miss I'm not sure his answer is always correct...

let's take my example and specify that the weapon used is the Steel Broadsword ... can the Hero reroll the red dice to try to lower the damage?

Quote

Rule book p.12

If an X is rolled on the blue attack die, the attack is considered a miss and
all other results are ignored. If an X is not rolled, the attacking player adds
up all of the [Heart] results on the dice to determine how much damage is dealt
by this attack.


from what I understand I would say no because once an attack is a miss it's ended and so only powers that could change the miss to a success could be used and clearly the bradsword can't change the miss result..

 

Edited by Felin

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If the attack is a miss, no surge or abilities can be triggered unless it would cancel that miss (reroll the blue die or add range for example). 

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On 2/17/2016 at 10:11 PM, Omnislash024 said:

Did I mention I hate posting on my phone?

And since I'm french the phone perform many correction that are really annoying and the message bécane ununderstandable.

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30 minutes ago, rugal said:

If the attack is a miss, no surge or abilities can be triggered unless it would cancel that miss (reroll the blue die or add range for example). 

Hence my question ...
On my example Rage was already triggered .. so does it apply ?

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1 minute ago, Felin said:

Hence my question ...
On my example Rage was already triggered .. so does it apply ?

all abiliies applies before the roll are applied, rage, or whatever

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Posted (edited)

Here is my take on Riposte.

Triggering condition
Riposte's triggering condition is "when an adjacent figure resolves an attack". This is after step 5 of the attack sequence is completed or when the attack is resolved due to a miss. This means that Riposte does not trigger if the Deep Elf was defeated in step 5 as the Deep Elf is no longer on the map when the attack is resolved.

Effects when the attack did not miss  
The attacker suffers damage equal to the defense results. In this case defense results consist of the shields rolled in step 2 and all additional shields added by other effects during the attack (Trenloe's Hero ability, Dark Fortitude, etc.). The OL or heroes may use reroll abilities to change the defense results in step 2.

Effects when the attack did miss
An attack can miss is step 2 (X rolled), step 3 (insufficient range) or step 4 (no surge to spend on Shadow ability). When the attack is determined a miss, it is immediately resolved without performing any further steps. That is when Riposte triggers. The ability states that the attack suffers damage equal to the [HEARTS] rolled. It is interesting that the wording here is not "attack results", which would be inline with the wording for a non-miss. It is my opinion this indicates that "[HEARTS] rolled" is not the same as "attack results".  It's just the [HEARTS] rolled on the attack and power dice. No other modifications apply. The attack results are sequentially modified during an attack:

Step 2
Rolling dice substep:
[HEARTS] rolled = attack results [1]
After rolling dice substep:
[HEARTS] rolled after rerolling = attack results [2]
attack results [2] + any modifications that trigger in this step (e.g. your attack gains +X [HEART], Staff of Greyhaven, Sorcery X, etc. ) = attack results [3] 
Step 3
I am not sure if there is anything that modifies attack result [3] in this step.
Step 4
attack results [3] + modifications = attack results [4]
Step 5
I am not sure if there is anything that modifies attack result [4] in this step.
 

My stance - that "[Hearts] rolled" =  attack results [2] - is supported by the following uFAQs:
For Krutzbeck's Heroic Feat (replace the result of you attack roll] the unmodified attack result [2] is used.
For Leoric's Hero ability ("-1 [HEART] on all attack rolls] the unmodified attack result [2] is used.
For Hugo the Glorious Heroic Feat (double the [HEART] on your attack roll) the unmodified attack result [2] is used.

Reroll abilities (Broad Sword, Fortuna's Dice, and many more)
Even if not explicitly stated on all cards, reroll abilities are triggered in the "after rolling dice" substep of step 2. I think that the reroll ability may be used even if it cannot prevent that attack to miss. Otherwise it would be really complicated with things like Thaiden Hero ability etc.   

Edited by Sadgit

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Just to understand without ambiguity .. Rage is it added on step 2 or Step 4 ?

Actually on the CRRG I only see this on P6 step 4
"Additional [Hearts] or [Shields] from abilities are added to the attack and defense results, respectively"

this seems to point that Rage but also Sorcery, Staff of Greyhaven are added at this step...

Perhaps you could add/modifiy the next CRRG uptade to include those precisions / examples ?

 

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Posted (edited)

Rage is added in step 2.

Yes, I might have to modify the CRRG here.

EDIT: Although "attack result" or "defense result" is not mentioned in the official rule book, many cards add [HEARTS], [SURGE] or [Shield] to attack or defense results. This happens at the time the ability is triggered. Otherwise, abilities that add surges could not be used in step 4 :)

Edited by Sadgit

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Yet to be clear... had Riposte been written "attack results" instead of "damaged rolled"

what would have been the Riposte damage ? attack results [2]  or attack results [3]  (with the Rage) ?
 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think that this would depend on the step the attack is determined to miss.

Step 2: attack result [2] (however I could well be wrong here)
Step 3: attack result [3]
Step 4: attack result [3]. It is not attack result [4] as surges preventing a miss must be spend first. 

Edited by Sadgit

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