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clontroper5

Lets Analyse Threat Range

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Added some Group Pics in the third post, Check them out!

 

Thanks man, it really puts things into perspective !

 

If you could find the strength to make a similar analysis (but simple) with 1 ISD 2, 2 VSD 2 (all with Enhanced Armaments) I'd love it :)

 

ok i added another pic in the middle of the 3rd post

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Is it possible to get a blank template for each ship size so we can color them in for our own fleets?

all i do is take a screen shot of the ships in vassal (i use fraps for the screenshot not Vassal itself)

 

then I bring up paint and simply Fill in each section with the appropriate color 

 

example.jpg

This^^ 

 

becomes

 

this:

 

Vic%2B1%2Bthreat%2Brange.jpg

 

 

Also make sure you save it as a Jpeg so you can post it on here if you want :)

Edited by clontroper5

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It may be worth noting that being player 1 with the larger number of ships can effectively give any one of your ships a Demolisher style threat range. The only difference is that instead of pulling it off all in one turn, you're doing the movement in the final activation of one turn, and the firing in the first activation of the following turn ;)

 

Not quite. And engine-teched glad can reliably do 1 long-range + move'n'attack at close range (with whatever nasty upgrades it has, like intel officer + ordnance), and then activate first next round. Other short-ranged ships are much more dependent on the enemy moving into range, which isn't going to happen as reliably. They also won't be able to reliably dash forward to smash a key small ship of finish off a wounder larger prey. Not like Demolisher does.

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Added some Group Pics in the third post, Check them out!

 

Thanks man, it really puts things into perspective !

 

If you could find the strength to make a similar analysis (but simple) with 1 ISD 2, 2 VSD 2 (all with Enhanced Armaments) I'd love it :)

 

ok i added another pic in the middle of the 3rd post

 

 

 

 

Added some Group Pics in the third post, Check them out!

 

Thanks man, it really puts things into perspective !

 

If you could find the strength to make a similar analysis (but simple) with 1 ISD 2, 2 VSD 2 (all with Enhanced Armaments) I'd love it :)

 

ok i added another pic in the middle of the 3rd post

 

 

Thanks man ! For some reason I can't see it on my computer but I am a patient man :)

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Lets take a quick look at how we can apply what we learned to Formation flying. 

 

First up rebels:

 

So rebels as you may have noticed earlier, generally have far less red but far more yellow, now the problem with yellow is that it inst going to kill much anytime soon so lets look out how that can be remedied in your games using formations

 

(i apoligies this dont look as clean as the single ships, harder to paint...)

 

first up a conga line,  in my example i am using 3 Mk2s but it works with any broadside ship

 

conga%2Bline%2Bthreat%2Brange.jpg

as we can see the conga line combines the Yellow and light orange of the assault frigates into a combind (oddly shaped like lips...)red area with a large area, including a dark red area where all 3 side arcs overlap. its also important to note this area is at long range, there is a good reason we here about this formation alot. of course it has those obvious weaknesses at the Front and rear of the formation.

 

 

 

lest take a look at the same fleet but in more of an Echelon formation

 

mk%2B2%2Bechalon.jpg

this formation increases the red area and decreases the yellow and green again but at the cost of less Dark red compared to the classic conga line, also the more extreme the angle the assault frigates have the less green area there is but the less red you get as well.

 

take a way: the more damage you need on a single target the better it is to run parallel or in a circle trying to keep the "focal point" on the target, such as when this fleet comes in contact with and ISD. But if you are trying to threaten more area (i.e. against enemy corvettes) it is better to use a staggered approach  with the greater the angle (meaning farther off of strait following each other) the more area is covered but the less severe the threat in that area becomes.

 

Great visual evidence that one wants to be nowhere near the middle of a conga line. I'm assuming these are sans-Ackbar, too, and that it would be much worse with an MC-80 in the middle...

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It may be worth noting that being player 1 with the larger number of ships can effectively give any one of your ships a Demolisher style threat range. The only difference is that instead of pulling it off all in one turn, you're doing the movement in the final activation of one turn, and the firing in the first activation of the following turn ;)

Not quite. And engine-teched glad can reliably do 1 long-range + move'n'attack at close range (with whatever nasty upgrades it has, like intel officer + ordnance), and then activate first next round. Other short-ranged ships are much more dependent on the enemy moving into range, which isn't going to happen as reliably. They also won't be able to reliably dash forward to smash a key small ship of finish off a wounder larger prey. Not like Demolisher does.

Oh, noone's saying that all ships are equally capable of exploiting the trick, but that's not the point. The point is that it gives potentially any ship a move+fire threat range by moving last in one turn, and firing first in the next.

Hell, you can even combine move last/fire first with the Demolisher for an epic move and fire triple-tap. Not even ISDs are going to feel too healthy after that! ;)

Edited by nekomatafuyu

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Hmmmm now I think the VSD arcs are off in Vassal. . .

 

Elaborate please?

Based off the pictures that clontroper5 is using the VSD has 45° arcs. That is an ISD though. The ISD has a classic V arc while the VSD has a much wider arc in comparison.

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Amazing work and thank you for sharing all of this. Really insightful when thinking about how to tear apart different formations and always focusing using your arcs to cover your ships. Goes to further show how powerful your current Vassal list is. 

 

I would love if you did more AAR's of your Vassal games showing your thought process and how you used your ships arcs to cover others like you showed for your game vs JJ. Excellent work!

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this nasty 3 af threat range is visualizing what I faced often enough, lately. Its not nice, I better get my act together and improve manouvering.

Thx Clon, what a huge amount of work, and equally hugely appreciated.

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I would really like to see the cr90 and mc30 broken up by variants

I was going to but useing my scale makes the cr90 and mc30 variants nearly identical. In all reality they have the same Threat level.

I might do trc90 vs sw-790

 

Does it? I mean the ranges are different. The CR90 B and the Torpedo Frigate are just like the Raider while the Scout and A have range.

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I would really like to see the cr90 and mc30 broken up by variants

I was going to but useing my scale makes the cr90 and mc30 variants nearly identical. In all reality they have the same Threat level.

I might do trc90 vs sw-790

Does it? I mean the ranges are different. The CR90 B and the Torpedo Frigate are just like the Raider while the Scout and A have range.
yes the effect on the game is drastic But both variants have peek damage at the same ranges which Leeds to nearly identical diagrams

Basically In my diagrams they go from Green to black at long range.

I guess I will make them and put them up but there isn't much to say about it

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I have yet to even start to internalize the larger lessons of this thread.

 

I did want to comment on the following, though:

 

I am pretty sure that 4 red and 4 blue is average 7 damage. . . Hmmmm that is usually me though. . .

6 actually

.75x8=6

but it has a very good chance of having an acuracy

 

I'm surprised that Lyraeus would suggest 7. I come to it by a different calculation than clontroper5, but I agree on 6 average damage.

 

I'm surprised by Lyraeus' calculation, because I know he adheres to the 80-20 rule. Going by that rule, however, you should not count on more than 5 damage from 4 red + 4 blue at <long range. The plurality of results is 6 damage (which you should expect only 23.2% of the time), and you can count on at least 6 damage only 67% of the time (ie. less than 80%).

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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I have yet to even start to internalize the larger lessons of this thread.

 

I did want to comment on the following, though:

 

I am pretty sure that 4 red and 4 blue is average 7 damage. . . Hmmmm that is usually me though. . .

6 actually

.75x8=6

but it has a very good chance of having an acuracy

 

I'm surprised that Lyraeus would suggest 7. I come to it by a different calculation than clontroper5, but I agree on 6 average damage.

 

I'm surprised by Lyraeus' calculation, because I know he adheres to the 80-20 rule. Going by that rule, however, you should not count on more than 5 damage from 4 red + 4 blue at <long range. The plurality of results is 6 damage (which you should expect only 24.6% of the time), and you can count on at least 6 damage only 66% of the time (ie. less than 80%).

I was not going mathematically, I was going by real world use. My ISD's with Vader rarely roll less than 8 damage after the reroll.

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