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Hexdot

My main critic about FFG policies

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There are extra cards in huge ships, "big" small ship expansions, and Aces/Vets.

So far, "small" small ship expansions have not included more cards than the ship itself can equip, have they? Why should the T70 be different?

TIE Phantom has 2 crew upgrades for only 1 slot.

 

2 DIFFERENT crew upgrades

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I totally agree with you Hexdot, what build you want to play and what build you are willing to throw money at can be two completely different things. I am relatively new to the game but an avid fan of the genre and want to collect every ship, but it is going to take me a very long time to be able to get to that point. 

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A think that'd be really cool would be either a Card Pack containing a bunch of essential upgrades (though that'd be unlikely for them to release), or to just pack them in with a faction "Starter" a la the Scum and Villainy one which did include a lot of cards so there's a precedent there.

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... or to just pack them in with a faction "Starter" a la the Scum and Villainy one which did include a lot of cards so there's a precedent there.

Well, that's how Aces/Veterans has done it for Rebels and Imperials. Rebel Veterans probably will have multiples of IA and whatever the T65 fix is.

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I think there is an interesting line between an upgrade card that is considered a "fix" versus an upgrade card or combination of upgrade cards that just takes that ship/pilot to a different level:
e.g. push-the-limit which in combination with autothrusters push a high pilot-skill A-wing and the Tie-Interceptor to a completely new level and in many regards defines boost-wing, combinations which are "simply" the best way to invest that amount of squad points for what that ship can do. Whereas the X1-title for the Tie-Avanced is fair to say a "fix" as for 0pts you get to equip up to 4pts of goodies. The chardan-refit falls in the line between, as A-wings with proton-rocket might also be what you need. 

Ofcourse this game had evolved from its first release, and will continue to evolve as players "discover" combinations of released upgrade-cards which are "just-that-good" without necessarily having been designed that way, combinations that leave other ships lackluster. This moving target requires adjustment, and I actually think FFG are doing quite a good job in this respect. 


As a fairly new player myself I was also somewhat surprised, the need to go and buy this "StarViper expansion" to get autothrusters in order to fly Soontir Fel. But you know what, at some point I decided for fun to dust my two StarVipers and play a fun little game with Scum, just to realize that I really loved it. 

Yes, I would also have loved for the T-70 to have come with two IA or the Tie/FO to have two Jukes or two Comms relay. But I actually usually buy two (sometimes more) of each ship, and at least for the competative play I always have what I need. And just for fun and experimentations, proxies and even simply just a list from one of the squad-builders is alway allowed in my X-wing group, here you only need the plastic-ship.

 

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Chardaan, Test Pilot, Royal Guard TIE (why does everyone seem to forget that?), /x1, and ATC are the major genuine fixes released thus far; I don't think I've missed any.  Autothrusters I don't feel is a fix per se (i.e. it's not for any one specific ship to amend its cost or capabilities) rather it's the rock to PWTs' and TLTs' scissors, for a wide range of ships that were very papery to those previously.

 

I wish Juke and Comm Relay had had more copies, or were in more expensions, but I don't doubt we'll see Juke (and probably Comm Relay, Weapons Guidance, BTLA4, IA, TLT, Conner Net, etc etc etc) again sometime soon(ish).

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I am going to point out the bleeding obvious here, FFG are a business and need to be keep the money flowing in.

Yes, but we are not the business. If I felt responsible for every company's profits and always had to take that into consideration I would be completely bankrupt.

This is the real world and I'm just concerned with my part of the deal - what do I feel is good for me, as a customer.

It's not that you "need to feel responsible" for their profits, but they do need to make money on what they do or they will go under. Its their choice to set the prices where they do. If you feel it's not worth your money, don't buy it. The free-market economy is really good at working itself out.

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I think there is an interesting line between an upgrade card that is considered a "fix" versus an upgrade card or combination of upgrade cards that just takes that ship/pilot to a different level

Yes, it's a blurry line rather than a fine one. In my book, a fix is an upgrade that merely corrects a past mistake, rather than actually providing a new option. A new option might be so powerful that one could consider it an autoinclude, but that would not make it a fix.

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I am going to point out the bleeding obvious here, FFG are a business and need to be keep the money flowing in.

Yes, but we are not the business. If I felt responsible for every company's profits and always had to take that into consideration I would be completely bankrupt.

This is the real world and I'm just concerned with my part of the deal - what do I feel is good for me, as a customer.

It's not that you "need to feel responsible" for their profits, but they do need to make money on what they do or they will go under. Its their choice to set the prices where they do. If you feel it's not worth your money, don't buy it. The free-market economy is really good at working itself out.

The free market economy only works itself out if I remain a critical consumer, who is always looking for a better deal. If I perceive the product to be good value, I'll buy it. And in that evaluation, the way the card fixes are sold brings down how I perceive the product. There's no point in reminding me that FFG needs to make money. So what? We all do. As I said in my first post, by and large I feel the games are worth the price, but if I really get the the idea that first I am being sold something that is badly designed, and next they tell me 'hey, but here is a fix you can buy,' then yes, at one point I will leave, because that is not what I expect. The argument 'they are a company and they are trying to make money' means absolutely nothing to me, not for FFG, or any other.

(As a matter of fact, I know from experience that I am just shooting myself in the foot if I remain 'loyal' to a company when I don't like the product - my 3rd edition D&D stuff has hardly been touched.)

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Chardaan, Test Pilot, Royal Guard TIE (why does everyone seem to forget that?), /x1, and ATC are the major genuine fixes released thus far; I don't think I've missed any.  Autothrusters I don't feel is a fix per se (i.e. it's not for any one specific ship to amend its cost or capabilities) rather it's the rock to PWTs' and TLTs' scissors, for a wide range of ships that were very papery to those previously.

rock paper scissors died

 

because the Joust>Turret>Dodge>Joust

became Joust<Turret>Dodge>Joust at first (EU PWTs)

and then AT came out

turning into Joust<Turret<Dodge>Joust

 

jousting rock is a sad rock

there's a fine line between FIX like refits, royal guard ties and so on

and Autoincludes like AT or TLT

Edited by Warpman

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People being condescending about people having issues with FFG's business model is part what drove me away from this community. Yes, it's a luxury model but other companies, e.g. Wyrd, which also releases fixes for their models in the forum of upgrades, manage to do it in a way more friendly way to their customers. Snarking at people for having legitimate grievances with the business model is not the right way to go. (Like, please, defend the Tie Advanced fix, it'd cost me 130 euros to get the Raider at the LGS here, for a ship I don't even care about just to get the fix. I can have a full malifaux crew for that price. And don't mention secondary market since having to go to the secondary market by itself shows that there's something wrong with the business model. )

Edited by Astrella

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So, buy models and copy, paste, print. The company cares his profit, I shield my wallet. And if somebody says that I am hurting FFG after buying 12 T 65 and 4 T 70, he deserves a "buyer of the month" Award.

Edited by Hexdot

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I get that OP loves T-65s, he's got 12 of them! Awesome! Guess what, if you are flying that many, that's epic, and if you really really wanna fly that many I would let you proxy IA all day long. I'm sure most reasonable players would do so.

Also, in a tourney, you can't possibly be seriously considering flying more than two generic T-65s that would need IA. BatWedge(tm Warpman) doesn't need it. Any other high ps pilot would want EU. Biggs loves IA as would a couple other guys but that's it, and they aren't all competitive.

And yes, WAIT FOR REBEL VETERANS. the real fix will be there, as well as two IAs if you really wanted them.

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This is a very valid critique of the T-70/TIE FO in particular.  FFG should have known better on this one.  Make no mistake about it, this isn't about pinching pennies. I have disposable income, affording the additional T-70 expansions is not an issue. What is an issue is that I despise being wasteful (probably one of the reasons I have disposable income in the first place).

 

I would have preferred FFG just pricing the card at $9.95 and calling it a day. I don't like having more ships than I can ever field in a standard squad. That's a waste of plastic and a waste of packaging.

 

Bottom line is this was a poor choice for FFG, though I suspect it may have had more to do with appeasing the overlords and ANA/Disney.

 

Oh, and before the brigade gets here, because I'm sure their "criticism of FFG" beepers are going off, allow me to add the following disclaimers:

 

1) The fact that Games Workshop has brutalized their customer base for years and you were one of those customers doesn't give FFG carte blanche to do the same just at a slightly lower level. 

 

2) FFG is still my favorite gaming company. I now own 7 titles outside of X-Wing miniatures. Nobody does this business better. It does us the consumers and FFG no good to turn a blind eye when poor decisions are made.

 

Just my 2 bits.

Edited by EastCoast

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FFG puts 5 Upgrades in a small Expansion (Or 2 in a 6-pilot small Expansion). There wasn't room for a second copy of IA or Juke+Comms Relay.

Now, FFG could change that model and include multiple copies of each non-unique Upgrade card in even small Expansions. But, that would mean some lost sales. Probably not a ton, but some. Which would mean a price hike. And the last time I brought that idea up, the response was a resounding "NO!"

To be honest, I think including copies 2 copies of Juke, Comms Relay, a copy of Integrated Astromech, and an extra copy of Wired in the TFA core set would have made more sense, but on the other hand Comms Relay and IA bump the complexity curve of the core set experience more than seems proper.

Edited by Squark

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People being condescending about people having issues with FFG's business model is part what drove me away from this community. Yes, it's a luxury model but other companies, e.g. Wyrd, which also releases fixes for their models in the forum of upgrades, manage to do it in a way more friendly way to their customers. Snarking at people for having legitimate grievances with the business model is not the right way to go. (Like, please, defend the Tie Advanced fix, it'd cost me 130 euros to get the Raider at the LGS here, for a ship I don't even care about just to get the fix. I can have a full malifaux crew for that price. And don't mention secondary market since having to go to the secondary market by itself shows that there's something wrong with the business model. )

and yet here you are back....

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