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GauntZero

Overwatch

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Truly, I understand your points very well Gauntzero! and please, don't take my musings to be anything more than theoritical ramblings on a discussion. 

 

To me, I find it isn't that powerful as it's use is primaryly stationary, and despite Komissark missing the point that a higher agility character can just run out of the 45 degree firing arc before the overwatch shot is launched (resulting in a miss), it can be mitigated fairly easy. The things that tame Overwatch are the following:

 

1. Have to be stationary. 

2. Higher agility characters can just run past your killzone before you fire, resulting in a miss!

3. There's a **** ton more of the cultist with autoguns than they are you and your fellow acolytes.

4. As a gmnpc'd cultist, i can just throw grenades blindly in your general direction or use smoke grenades to prevent your triggering of visual based triggers. 

5. There are tons of gear options that limit viability of other trigger actions based on sound, etc.

6. The npcs can make a pc waste his turn by standing still or doing nothing at all. Wooooo

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I know ;D And it is also nothing personal from my side. I just fight for the sake of humanity here ;)

 

1. no problem if you are in cover

2. I dont think so. It just defines who acts first if 2 actions would be at the same time. If your walking into the zone triggers the shot, there is no other action at the same time. Just the movement action being carried out to its end. As far as I know, you may not Change your Action while being about to carry it out, so you cant do nothing to Counter the overwatch shot at all.

3.) yes, but it isnt making Things better if others use overwatch too. I am not saying that it is a benefit for one side. It is just a fatalreason for everyone to take overwatch all the time (even in situations it was not intended for), because it is more effective. This leads to very boring Encounters.

4.) yes, if he knows that you "overwatch". Which he usually doesnt (at least in-game).

5.) see 4

6.) see 4; also: when both just stand there and wait - is this really contributing to the fun of an Encounter ?

 

 

As a side note:

" If a character on Overwatch performs any actions or Reactions, such as Evasion, his Overwatch immediately Ends."

Taking on this as a rules lawyer, one might also argue that the triggered shot (as it is an Action itself), immediately Ends the overwatch....

Edited by GauntZero

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This is fun! As long as we are both in high spirits about this debate...

 

1. Agreed then. 

2. This game is based on taking turns, with simultaenous actions being beaten by agility in all other areas. I have to be really adamant here that the higher agility character would go first and carry out his actions prior to the overwatchers. The overwatcher is, in fact, being reactionary, not proactive, so it makes perfect sense.

3. It wouldn't really be effective in my group's play. They could overwatch to their hearts content, but I use pyskers, daemons, vehicles, and also utilize the non-demonstration vertical planes on virtual maps to create combat situations. Overwatch just can't be used in such a meaningful manner to warrant a red flag for me.

4 - 6. maybe not the first guy, or second guy, but im pretty sure the third guy would see his buddies dropping dead as they turn the corner.

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As a side note:

" If a character on Overwatch performs any actions or Reactions, such as Evasion, his Overwatch immediately Ends."

Taking on this as a rules lawyer, one might also argue that the triggered shot (as it is an Action itself), immediately Ends the overwatch....

 

Good thing the shot forcing the overwatching character to dodge came from an enemy outside his field of fire. An enemy that can't trigger overwatch because it's not in the death zone.

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2. it is talking about "actions" Happening at the same time, not turns !

"If it occurs at the same time as another character’s action, the character with the higher Agility acts first"

There is nothing that indicates that the whole turn may be carried out completely - just the Action

 

3. This is hardly compareable to Standard situations. Of Course overwatch is of no use against a Meteor falling onto you either. But thats not a "Standard case"

 

4-6: he would not - as it all happens within splits of seconds. That one overwatch guy (lets call him Rambo from now on) - so, Rambo, hits all your 43 heretics with a shot to the chest within 5 seconds (thats almost 10 Standard attacks per second), not giving them the Chance to dodge, and by the way, pinning them.

On a side note: they even have to roll against pinning, if he does not hit them !!!

 

" along with the conditions under which he will perform the chosen attack"

--> hey, that means Rambo can even define a whole number of triggers, that not even have to be Actions.

So:

Trigger 1: Anyone appears

Trigger 2: My shot before hit him

Trigger 3: my shot before did not hit him

 

--> endless hits :D

 

We finally have found a solution how BS01 characters finally can contribute to ranged combat :)

 

And one more think as icing on the cake: quite often, Targets are probably surprised too, giving a +30 to hit them.

Edited by GauntZero

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As a side note:

" If a character on Overwatch performs any actions or Reactions, such as Evasion, his Overwatch immediately Ends."

Taking on this as a rules lawyer, one might also argue that the triggered shot (as it is an Action itself), immediately Ends the overwatch....

 

Good thing the shot forcing the overwatching character to dodge came from an enemy outside his field of fire. An enemy that can't trigger overwatch because it's not in the death zone.

 

 

Thats why professionals do it together in several directions.

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But can they cover all directions ?

 

Being pinned doesn't stop someone from throwing a grenade at Mr. Overwatch. While the grenade will likely miss, that just means it scatters 1d5 meters. If he's still in the blast radius of a grenade, he's getting hit unless he dodges. If it's a smoke/blind grenade, overwatch can be ruined because he can't see the enemies. Maybe the guy with the grenade drops it at his own feet so that he guarantees the smoke is between his allies and Mr. Overwatch. A hallucinogen grenade has a 6m blast radius, so a miss still lands in within range of Mr. Overwatch. Though a large blast radius means it might land so close that he can't attempt a dodge.

 

How does Mr. Overwatch stop a grenade ruining his overwatch ?

By hitting the enemies with enough damage to kill them. Which means expending more ammo.

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FIrst problem is, that you need to have a grenade with you.

 

But even if you have, the much bigger problem is, that pinned characters only have a half Action and actively Need to use it to go for cover (so, your first Action is already spent - and not for tossing a grenade).

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But can they cover all directions ?

 

Being pinned doesn't stop someone from throwing a grenade at Mr. Overwatch. While the grenade will likely miss, that just means it scatters 1d5 meters. If he's still in the blast radius of a grenade, he's getting hit unless he dodges. If it's a smoke/blind grenade, overwatch can be ruined because he can't see the enemies. Maybe the guy with the grenade drops it at his own feet so that he guarantees the smoke is between his allies and Mr. Overwatch. A hallucinogen grenade has a 6m blast radius, so a miss still lands in within range of Mr. Overwatch. Though a large blast radius means it might land so close that he can't attempt a dodge.

 

How does Mr. Overwatch stop a grenade ruining his overwatch ?

By hitting the enemies with enough damage to kill them. Which means expending more ammo.

By not wasting a reaction to dodge a frag grenade and getting their return shot off against the attacker? 2d10X pen 0 is just plain underwhelming against TB 3-4, cover, and some form of flak armour. Also note that being Pinned would result in a BS penalty, and while outright missing with a grenade is usually pretty difficult, it becomes far more likely. Sure, smoke grenades may help them, but it just means the Overwatch player switches back to the "normal" mode of play instead.

 

Consider that the grenade would be the same sort of threat that could be leveled against the player if they were merely making normal attacks from the same position. While sure, you're speaking of things that reduce the effectiveness of Overwatch prematurely, the potential chance to get a scaling action that hits multiple enemies is far more useful.

 

If I had the choice between a single attack (an attack being a -chance- to hit an opponent) that I knew would go off for certain, or the option to make up to 6 attacks, with the off chance that I might be forced to stop attacking prematurely, I feel that it is generally a better idea to go for the potential 6 attacks than the guaranteed 1 attack. Basically as long is it performs 1-2 attacks, it has served its purpose better than the guaranteed chance to attack.

 

Hell, just the ability to have a chance to invoke Pinning with a single shot weapon is worth it. Or even Overwatch with a Flamethrower, and the ability to hit tightly grouped enemies multiple times in a turn (Pin them and set them on fire, thus preventing their ability to take the Full Action to put themselves out).

 

Sure, if the enemy has all sorts of weird grenades it might be an issue, but if they don't have that option, then what? Or what about non-human opponents. A small swarm of feral gaunts for example. 

 

Its also worth pointing out that Overwatch exerts control over the situation, whereas a Standard Attack/Semi Auto/Full Auto does not. An intelligent opponent against someone using Overwatch instead of a "normal" attack has to think about their actions, they are forced to make decisions by dint of their opponent acting a certain way, lest they be shot by an undodgeable attack and potentially pinned. Normal attacks don't do this, and instead just simply hit the opponent. Sure they have to make decisions going forward about the situation as a whole, but there isn't an on-going effect that immediately responds to their actions. That exertion of control over a target is extremely effective as it is forcing them to act with respect to the actions their opponents are taking, as opposed to acting proactively.

 

Thus, even though there are remedies for fighting against someone using Overwatch, the problem again is just that its a stronger choice than the normal attacks.

Edited by KommissarK

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Two Questions Then...

 

How does Overwatch work in the 40k Miniatures Game?

 

Why doesn't it work like the Space Hulk video game - whereby each box a foe steps into they are fired upon rather than Pinned?

 

FIN

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Two Questions Then...

 

How does Overwatch work in the 40k Miniatures Game?

 

Why doesn't it work like the Space Hulk video game - whereby each box a foe steps into they are fired upon rather than Pinned?

 

FIN

Pretty sure there isn't an analogue to the tabletop game (its been forever since I've read those rules; the miniatures game has long since left the realm of my personal interest. I love 40k fluff, lore, and tone, but I'm just not interested in dropping $1k on a bunch of plastic models I'm never going to get around to painting). You just move your plastic dudesemen and shoot. You could counterattack a charge, that sorta thing, but I don't think there is any sort of reactionary shooting.

 

Overwatch as an action is simply named with respect to Space Hulk, and the nature of the action seems to be more the result of the necessity of having a "readied attack" in a tabletop RPG, combined with with some thinking on the tactical nature of the game (that it causes pinning). That it is undodgeable is a result of how the reactions system works with respect to your own turn (can't use reactions on your own turn).

Edited by KommissarK

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There is an analogue to the tabletop game. It's called...Overwatch, and has been re-introduced as of Sixth Edition. It works based on when enemy units move and the Overwatcher unit can take snap shots at the unit. 

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There is an analogue to the tabletop game. It's called...Overwatch, and has been re-introduced as of Sixth Edition. It works based on when enemy units move and the Overwatcher unit can take snap shots at the unit. 

To be fair though, Overwatch as an action in Dark Heresy is much older than 40k Sixth Edition.

 

And the action hasn't made too serious of a wording change in the jump from first to second edition (besides the devs stating that it -can- trigger multiple times)

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I know. But Overwatch as a concept to 40k has been well established throught the majority of the game's existence, only being missed between 3rd-5th edition. It has shown itself in countless spin offs such as Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Space Hulk, and so on. 

 

It's very well an established thing in the gamelines based on the setting. ^_^

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. Sure, smoke grenades may help them, but it just means the Overwatch player switches back to the "normal" mode of play instead.

 

Back to the 43 thieves. If the first drops a smoke grenade in the right place, the other 42 aren't going to be hit by overwatch. The action he took to go into overwatch didn't accomplish much compared to shooting an enemy already present.

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. Sure, smoke grenades may help them, but it just means the Overwatch player switches back to the "normal" mode of play instead.

 

Back to the 43 thieves. If the first drops a smoke grenade in the right place, the other 42 aren't going to be hit by overwatch. The action he took to go into overwatch didn't accomplish much compared to shooting an enemy already present.

 

Even so, I'd rather take my chances that they won't drop a smoke grenade and possibly shoot more than one, than worry about shooting just one thief. I'd rather have the chance 50/50 to shoot at all (given the binary possibility that they either have or don't have smoke grenades) of them than the guarantee to shoot at one of them, especially when facing a number of enemies greater than the number of party members.

 

Or how about this, as mentioned earlier, you can Overwatch with a Flamethrower. No test to hit, and the smoke grenade won't help. Given that I knew where they were, its clear that if Overwatch was triggered by the enemies action, that it could immediately be followed by the attack (i.e. they can't throw the grenade and also move).

 

Now the real rules crunchy question is this: can an Overwatched Flame attack (or blast for that matter), cause Pinning on all targets hit, or just upon the character that triggered the Overwatch attack? Gut can't decide, and language seems nebulous.

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I still think this argument has obfuscated the point of Overwatch somewhat; it's supposed to amazingly good. It emphasizes the importance of getting the drop on someone, of having a gun pointed at their face and generally having control over an otherwise hostile situation. Yes, taken to extremes, it can get silly (which is where the 40 Thieves circumstance falls into things...but when is that sort of thing ever going to happen?), but on the whole it's doing what it's supposed to do.

 

Yes, going into Overwatch is better than just shooting someone (except when it comes to aiming, or using suppressing fire, or in close combat, or if you need to move or do anything but shoot things in a small arc in front of you under certain circumstances...). On the other hand, if all anyone did in a fight was go into Overwatch, you end up with a Mexican Standoff, which will only be resolved by one person taking a chance by acting first, or by those involved talking it out. Think of it like this; going into Overwatch is taking the active choice not to shoot someone. At least until they trigger whatever it is you've decided is the condition for shooting them. This opens up the possibility of negotiations.

 

This argument shouldn't be about how Overwatch is overpowered, or too good, it should be about how Overwatch actually plays out when used properly. Some nut-case berserker will happily ignore that gun in their face and take the chance of their foe hitting them; if they've got the right Talents, they can happily ignore the Pinning even. Sound about right to you? It does to me. If the guy you've got a gun pointed at isn't a complete nutter, then he's going to think twice about breathing, right? Still sounding about right? It does to me.

 

Let's extend it to a slightly larger scale situation that might actually occur in-game; you and a bunch of mates round a corner and the Guard standing by the door you want to get through spots you and points his gun in your general direction; he's twitchy and nervous and alone and you can tell that as soon as any one of you so much as breathes, he's going to plug someone. What's the appropriate response? I wouldn't take my chances and I doubt my buddies will either. He's only one guy, but if Overwatch isn't worth a ****, I'm just going to wait for the meat-shield in the party to take the hit before me and everyone else just rushes the guy. It doesn't produce the desired or expected outcome of the situation, as far as simulation goes. With Overwatch being awesome, none of us are going to rush that guy because he's got the advantage; as soon as any or all of us try something, he'll plug them. So we try negotiation instead. Appropriate outcome achieved.

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I dont share your point of view here.

 

The situation you describe can be achieved alost the same way, with a limitation to 1 shot, without possibly breaking the game.

 

There is no realistic reason why I should be able to shot several times if compared to a regular standard attack.

 

Why should I be able to shoot 4 times in a reactive overwatch (which is reactive, therefore even wastes time with waiting), but only 1 time if I attack regualrly at the same guys standing next to each other. And with overeatch they cant even dodge and probably get pinned ?!

 

And it is not about us searching desperetly how to break a healthy mechanism. The mechanism as is now, is totally broken and such an exploit that it jumps into ones face.

 

As a player, all I'd do to become a combat professional, is pushing up my agility (to be the one acting first) and buy a weapon with a huge clip. Then the fun begins.

 

ANother exmple:

If a group of gangers draws their swords and runs towards you. You, armed with a shotgun, aleady waiting in overwatch with the trigger "as soon as someone enters point-blank-range".

Bam - bam - bam - bam - bam. 5 gangers down.

Why do I suddenly have all the time in the world while a Group of People storms my positions within a handfull of seconds ?

There is just not enough time to shoot at each of them. Especially since the attack has no Penalty - meaning I take the same time to hit my target as if making a regular Standard attack.

The "physics" make no sense.

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ANother exmple:

If a group of gangers draws their swords and runs towards you. You, armed with a shotgun, aleady waiting in overwatch with the trigger "as soon as someone enters point-blank-range".

Bam - bam - bam - bam - bam. 5 gangers down.

Why do I suddenly have all the time in the world while a Group of People storms my positions within a handfull of seconds ?

 

Because the random group of people brought melee weapons to a gun fight! =D

 

 

There is just not enough time to shoot at each of them. Especially since the attack has no Penalty - meaning I take the same time to hit my target as if making a regular Standard attack.

The "physics" make no sense.

Actually, that's more or less how it works in real life. It takes less than a second to make a semi-automatic burst and get multiple kills down a corridor or alleyway. The Overwatch rule is basically modeled on a very real thing.

Edited by Cogniczar

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No, it is not.

 

The people all arrive within the same second. There isnt even enough space to do so.

 

And a semi-automatic burst that might hit several targets with its bullets is something different than multiple overatch-shot-actions by the rules. Multiple-overwatch-actions mean, I can pump 5 loads of full-auto into 5 targets in 1 second (including the time I need to adjust my weapon for a new target and blow a kiss towards it).

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As a soldier who was in a combat zone, I can attest yes it is Gaunt. =P

 

Edit: Also mechanically, those people are all arriving in 5 second intervals in accordance with their rounds actions. Unless your using horde rules, which then it would only prompt one attack anyway. 

Edited by Cogniczar

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YOu are missing that 5 seconds is for a whole round, not for 1 turn.

 

So they are all arriving within the same 5 seconds. Taking into account that they also have to walk/run most of the time during their turn, where the one with overwatch just waits, it shortens the time window further.

 

So shooting 5+ guys in 2- seconds with an aiming/technique that is the same of a regular shot ? I just dont believe that. As a former child who liked to fight in garden combat zones with water pistols, I can confirm you - no it is impossible.

 

Maybe Lucky Luke can do that but not average Joe.

 

And again, it is something that anyway breaks the whole System.

Lets say, I'd go with: ok, multiple hits are valid

 

My next move as GM: I use it  extensively. And by that - I mean - EXTENSIVELY.

 

Mooks will start to overwatch PCs for every muscle they move. 5 mooks at a time. Players will love that.

 

On the positive: combat will be over in 1 turn.

Edited by GauntZero

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