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mordredwindrider

Do Balanced and Defensive Weapon Traits Stack?

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I had this question come up in my game today because one of my players uses a power sword and shield combo.  Under the description of the Balanced trait, it states that the bonus to parry does not stack with other Balanced weapons that the character might be wielding.  It does not state anything about whether it stacks or not with another item with the Defensive bonus.  My ruling at the time was that they do not stack because logically, you're only parrying with one item.  The player felt like the fighting style would contribute to both traits stacking.  This approach does make sense to me but at the same time, there's a big difference in the effects of blocking an attack with the power sword versus blocking with the shield (it is not a power shield obviously) as one item has the chance to destroy the opponents' weapon and the other does not.

 

I was curious as to other peoples' thoughts on this.  Should the two stack together?  Reflecting fighting style synergy or should it be one or the other, representing that only one item is actually being used to block the attack?

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I'd rule no stacking different weapon bonuses together as well.

 

That said, I'd totally allow a Balanced shield with the Defensive trait as well.  Call it a Buckler, only give a +1 Armor to the limb it is on.  Something designed to easily catch, deflect and foil attacks, not be a bulwark against them.

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Woah, what wierd wording for Balanced. It seems like the actually intended for Balanced to give the wielder +10 on ALL WS Parry tests, even with a different weapon. Otherwise, why would they specify that two weapons' Balance qualities don't stack?

 

They could have simply written, "Balanced weapons give the wielder +10 to Weapon Skill tests made to Parry with that weapon."

Boom, no confusion. Even the Defensive quality specifies that the Parry reaction has to be done with the weapon with the Defensive Quality to gain the bonus.

 

I would actually rule, although this is pretty crazy, that it DOES stack.

 

So... best craftsmanship shield while wielding a sword = +35 to parry.

 

Hah. Rad.

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Defensive

A Defensive weapon, such as a shield, is intended to be used to block attacks and is awkward when used to attack. A weapon with this quality grants a +15 bonus to tests made when used to Parry, but imposes a –10 penalty on tests to make attacks with it.

 


Balanced

Carefully  weighted,  the  weapon  moves  naturally  with  the  user, making his parries more successful. Balanced weapons grant a +10 bonus to Weapon Skill tests made to Parry. Even if the wielder is using multiple Balanced weapons, he only gains the bonus once.

 

for me is clear, you get one bonus to parry depending on the weapon you are using, if using both, choose one. If you are planning to stack, then when you attack with the sword you should get the -10 to attacks...weird :P. After all weapons qualities do not stack with each other.

Edited by jack_px

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Defensive
A Defensive weapon, such as a shield, is intended to be used to block attacks and is awkward when used to attack. A weapon with this quality grants a +15 bonus to tests made when used to Parry, but imposes a –10 penalty on tests to make attacks with it.
 
Balanced
Carefully  weighted,  the  weapon  moves  naturally  with  the  user, making his parries more successful. Balanced weapons grant a +10 bonus to Weapon Skill tests made to Parry. Even if the wielder is using multiple Balanced weapons, he only gains the bonus once.
 
for me is clear, you get one bonus to parry depending on the weapon you are using, if using both, choose one. If you are planning to stack, then when you attack with the sword you should get the -10 to attacks...weird :P. After all weapons qualities do not stack with each other.

 

 

You definitely don't get -10 to WS when attacking with a non-Defensive weapon, even if you're holding one.

 

As for the properties not stacking, the text explicitly states that Defensive only applies to the weapon with the property, whereas Balanced makes no such distinction, but ADDITIONALLY specifies that two Balanced weapons don't affect each other.

 

This is an example of the exeption proving the rule. They have specifically ruled out the case that a Balanced weapon's Parry bonus does not affect parrying with another weapon that is also Balanced. The implication being that the Balanced Quality does apply to other weapons wielded if they do not have the Balanced Quality.

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Forgetting the book on this one, you intuitively only gain benefits for the weapon you are using to parry.  Defensive should be a quality that overwrites balanced, in the same way that unwieldy overwrites unbalanced.  The books only go so far, this is a good occasion to common-sense house rule.

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That said, I'd totally allow a Balanced shield with the Defensive trait as well.  Call it a Buckler, only give a +1 Armor to the limb it is on.  Something designed to easily catch, deflect and foil attacks, not be a bulwark against them.

 

I honestly disagree. Having done a fair shair (not a specialist at all but still) of fights with bucklers and bigger shield, I would even consider the buckler as a piece of armour that cover bots hands and arms with a great bonus (like 4-5) and having the capacity to be used to parry but with unbalanced.

 

The buckler is a tool to reinforce the hands around the sword and deflects the blow that your attacks do not stop, but purely blocking with a buckler isn't really efficient.

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Soooo im right then they dont stack :P

 

No no, precisely the opposite. Wielding at least one Balanced weapon gives you +10 to all Parry tests. RAW, of course.

 

Forgetting the book on this one, you intuitively only gain benefits for the weapon you are using to parry.  Defensive should be a quality that overwrites balanced, in the same way that unwieldy overwrites unbalanced.  The books only go so far, this is a good occasion to common-sense house rule.

 

I can see both sides. If you're wielding a shield in one hand and a massively unwieldy weapon in the other, then perhaps it's harder to get your whole body positioned where it needs to be to parry effectively with the other weapon.

 

But yeah, I'd probably house-rule it.

Edited by Flail-Bot

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That said, I'd totally allow a Balanced shield with the Defensive trait as well.  Call it a Buckler, only give a +1 Armor to the limb it is on.  Something designed to easily catch, deflect and foil attacks, not be a bulwark against them.

 

I honestly disagree. Having done a fair shair (not a specialist at all but still) of fights with bucklers and bigger shield, I would even consider the buckler as a piece of armour that cover bots hands and arms with a great bonus (like 4-5) and having the capacity to be used to parry but with unbalanced.

 

The buckler is a tool to reinforce the hands around the sword and deflects the blow that your attacks do not stop, but purely blocking with a buckler isn't really efficient.

 

 

Point to discuss this. While I haven't fought WITH buckler in the past, I have fought AGAINST sword and buckler at times, and the key thing with the buckler (that I suppose could be argued in favor of stacking the bonuses), is that the simple presence of the buckler limits my attack angles. For the guy defending, parrying my blow just became much easier, because that buckler, just by being there, massively reduces the number of options he has to cover.

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The real question here ought to be - does using a sword vs. an axe make you better at parrying with your shield?  Does using a shield make you better at parrying with your sword?

 

Alternatively, is parrying weapon-agnostic?  If a parry test doesn't care about which weapon you use, how do you resolve Power Fields?  If I wield one balanced and one unbalanced weapon, do the benefits and penalties cancel, or can I parry with one and disregard the other?

 

These questions should elicit the outline for how each weapon combination statistically behaves.

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Would a Power Axe (unbalanced) make you worse at parrying with the shield in your other hand than not carrying the Power Axe ?

 

Would a Power Fist (unwieldy) on one hand make you incapable of parrying with the shield in your other hand ?

 

 

Because, if defensive stacks with balanced, I see no reason why those qualities wouldn't stack either.

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Would a Power Axe (unbalanced) make you worse at parrying with the shield in your other hand than not carrying the Power Axe ?

 

Would a Power Fist (unwieldy) on one hand make you incapable of parrying with the shield in your other hand ?

 

 

Because, if defensive stacks with balanced, I see no reason why those qualities wouldn't stack either.

 

Those two rules state specifically that it only applies to using them to parry.

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Going back to this topic, the way I read it is that Balanced and Defensive (sword and shield respectively) do stack.  However, with the Counter Attack talent, if using both of those (the Balanced sword and the Defensive shield) the player would have to use the SHIELD (and the -20 penalty it has to attack) to perform the Counter Attack?

 

~ alemander

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Point to discuss this. While I haven't fought WITH buckler in the past, I have fought AGAINST sword and buckler at times, and the key thing with the buckler (that I suppose could be argued in favor of stacking the bonuses), is that the simple presence of the buckler limits my attack angles. For the guy defending, parrying my blow just became much easier, because that buckler, just by being there, massively reduces the number of options he has to cover.

 

 

Would be my pleasure, but I think we would digress too much here!

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My opinion is that those bonuses stack if you parry with the shield while having a sword in the other hand. About the axe question i heard that the axe is a very difficult weapon to use defensevely , It also make sense to me that a two handed axe would be more difficult to parry with. Last point dont you guys think that a person with a sword and a shield has an easier time parrying a blow than someone with Just a sword or Just the shield?

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