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Varsovian

Aren't the Enemies supplements a bit... lacking?

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I was wondering: am I the only one who is a bit disappointed by how the three Enemies supplements turned out?

 

I mean, they are good. Each has interesting stuff inside. Still, I'm not entirely satisfied...

 

For example: Enemies Without. The book doesn't really cover all of the xenos from WH40K universe. There's not much on the Necrons, the Kroot are the only Tau race examined - also, there's nothing on the Tyranids. I realize the book was written with Askelon Sector in mind, but... I don't actually plan on running games in that sector. And I'd love to see some details on the Tyranids, because I'd really like to use them...

 

Similarly, Enemies Beyond is as comprehensive as it could be. Yes, there's a lot on the Chaos Daemons... but where are the Chaos Space Marines? They are as important as the Daemons, but we got nothing on them. Thankfully, I own Black Crusade, so I can use this game to stat up CSM antagonists... still, I'd like to see some proper DH 2E material on them...

 

I don't know. As I said, the book *are* good, but they don't provide all of the options...

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Yeah, I wasn't completely satisfied with Enemies Without as well.  There are actually two Tyranid stat-blocks in there, by the way; a Lictor and Genestealer Purebreed.  They're on Vouxis, but they didn't properly name them or give them some of the important rules needed for things like Genestealers (or stats on Hybrids, which are one of the most fun enemies to chuck at your party).  They also don't get into enough detail on any race but the Eldar (which I like, but I like others too).  There's no new or 'minor' aliens to use, just shoddy write-ups on some of the bigger threats.  

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I disagree with the misnomers being called shoddy write-ups, in fact the re-naming of the Necron weapons and their entire race was a stroke of genius in my eyes. We as GMs and players come into the game with a lot of background knowledge on the lore and setting, so we can sometimes forget that people in the actual world itself do not have this information readily available.

 

The fact that the Genestealer is named something else (don't have the book on hand) and the Necron weapons are given imperial designations really adds to the immersion in my opinion, it reinforces the idea that these are strange beings or esoteric devices that can merely be given titles that attempt to explain their origin or purpose to the people within the setting while leaving enough hints that actual players know what is being described.

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The book doesn't really cover all of the xenos from WH40K universe. There's not much on the Necrons, the Kroot are the only Tau race examined - also, there's nothing on the Tyranids. I realize the book was written with Askelon Sector in mind, but... I don't actually plan on running games in that sector. And I'd love to see some details on the Tyranids, because I'd really like to use them...

 

You answered yourself the question.

 

The game is designed about Askellon Sector and as intented, do not have such factions. 

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If they continue to publish books for DH2, I could very well see something coming regarding Necrons.

 

As the books state several times, there definitely are Necrons in Askellon, slowly awaking from their sleep soon.

Thats one of the reasons the eldar might be quite active here - and also certain relics and weapons found in the sector are clear hints to that.

 

The fact that they did not bring much directly about the necrons could indeed be a hint for a book to come that centers necrons, maybe an adventure book (like RT did with the dark eldar).

 

The only other iconic race that got no love are the tu, which is certainly so due to the...well...absence of tau here. We can at least be glad to have some kroot on Yanth ;D

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I was wondering: am I the only one who is a bit disappointed by how the three Enemies supplements turned out?

 

I mean, they are good. Each has interesting stuff inside. Still, I'm not entirely satisfied...

 

For example: Enemies Without. The book doesn't really cover all of the xenos from WH40K universe. There's not much on the Necrons, the Kroot are the only Tau race examined - also, there's nothing on the Tyranids. I realize the book was written with Askelon Sector in mind, but... I don't actually plan on running games in that sector. And I'd love to see some details on the Tyranids, because I'd really like to use them...

 

Similarly, Enemies Beyond is as comprehensive as it could be. Yes, there's a lot on the Chaos Daemons... but where are the Chaos Space Marines? They are as important as the Daemons, but we got nothing on them. Thankfully, I own Black Crusade, so I can use this game to stat up CSM antagonists... still, I'd like to see some proper DH 2E material on them...

 

Keep in mind that all the 40K RPG's have a specific setting, and the rules and background for each of them service that setting. Dark Heresy 2.0 is not about Inquisitorial warbands across the whole Imperium, it's about Inquisitorial warbands within the Askellon Sector*, as such the adversaries, background and items presented are those that are most appropriate to that specific setting. Chaos Marines and Tyranids aren't a part (or a big enough part to warrant much mention) in the Askellon Sector.

 

*You don't have to use the setting, obviously, but that's your choice and you can hardly fault the game for not doing something it never intended to do in the first place. None of our Dark Heresy games were set in the Calixis sector, so some of the unique Calixis-only things were lost to us. That wasn't the game's fault, that was our choice not to do that.

 

 

Yeah, I wasn't completely satisfied with Enemies Without as well.  There are actually two Tyranid stat-blocks in there, by the way; a Lictor and Genestealer Purebreed.  They're on Vouxis, but they didn't properly name them or give them some of the important rules needed for things like Genestealers (or stats on Hybrids, which are one of the most fun enemies to chuck at your party).  They also don't get into enough detail on any race but the Eldar (which I like, but I like others too).  There's no new or 'minor' aliens to use, just shoddy write-ups on some of the bigger threats.  

 

The names for Genestealer and Lictor were intentional. The people of Vouxis Prime don't know what a Genestealer, or Lictor or even a Tyranid is. And what important rules are missing? And when have you ever seen Hybrids given rules in the past 10+ years of any GW publication, licensed or otherwise?

 

The fact that the Genestealer is named something else (don't have the book on hand) and the Necron weapons are given imperial designations really adds to the immersion in my opinion, it reinforces the idea that these are strange beings or esoteric devices that can merely be given titles that attempt to explain their origin or purpose to the people within the setting while leaving enough hints that actual players know what is being described.

 

That's exactly the reason why the names are that way. It's the whole 'unreliable narrator' aspect. Everything is presented from the point of view of the people in the Askellon Sector, which is why Necron weapons have clinical scientific names because the Askellon AdMech don't really know what the Necrons are, and it's why they find the strange advanced tech in the hands of the Kroot so perplexing, as the Kroot seem so primitive.

BYE

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The only thing I am just missing so far, are some of the more regular weapon and equipment options that DH1's Inquisitors handbook had.

 

So, not the Very Rare+ style of stuff you rarely see, but rather the more common guns & melee weapons, typical for the planets of askellon would be great. They could just be a Little different from the Standard weapons but give a lot more flavour to askellon.

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I can enjoy the Unreliable Narrator to an extent; GM knowledge sections are not one of them.  I want good game information so I can properly run things.  Having to source other materials or previous editions to get all the information is vaguely unsatisfying.  I've got friends new to the setting who I've given reading material, then I lent them Enemies Without; they flat-out said they don't like the book because there was too little information given compared to other sources.  Having the local information/in-character perspective is great, but you need to balance it with the objective view as well.  

 

Hell, when it talks about Orks there's a total of three sentences saying they spread by spores, and nothing about Squigs, Snotlings, Gretchins and other Orkoid ecology.  

 

Call the two Tyranid variants Stalkers and Shades in the local vernacular, sure.  I thought that was neat, and I do the same thing for pretty much all planets and their local concerns.  It wasn't that neat when I considered the fact that Enemies Without is supposed to be a source-book.  As far as Genestealer go, we could use stats on the Kiss and their Hypnosis (and I know there are stats for those in 1st Edition products).  Regarding Hybrids, why are there NOT stats for Hybrids?  I never got much into 1st Ed Dark Heresy and Co; I always assumed they were somewhere in there.  You indicating there are not any seems...  Unwise?  Especially for a Dark Heresy game, where Purebreed Genestealers generally go through Acolytes like butter.  The Hybrids make much better foes for Dark Heresy level shenanigans.  

 

There's also stats for Necron weapons, but no stats for Necrons themselves?  I can understand not handing out write-ups for every kind, but giving your basic Necron foot-soldier as a template to build off of would have been nice.  It would give good examples of what level their regeneration would be at, how their teleportation would work, etc.  I'm not fond of building stats for a game then having a new book come out and make my work obsolete; this seems extremely likely for Necrons given the information given.   

 

I don't mind the lack of Tau, given we're across a galaxy from them and they don't travel erratically like Mankind or other threats.  Kroot, being nomadic mercenaries looking for genetic material, totally make sense being everywhere. 

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You know, I was actually waiting for someone to raise the question "Are chaos space marines in Enemy Beyond?"

On the one hand I wouldn't want acolytes to come acroos one because just one could wipe the floor with the warband. Yet after looking at the 'canned' scenarios for Only War the way the csm was handled in No Surrender (and a Warpsmith at that!) Was well done. Relocate it to the Thule Subsector, or a star fort close to the Great Beyond, and ignore elements of the Spinward Front and there you have it a warpsmith beginning to construct daemon engines which needs to be averted...

I actually have an old pc from BC, a Forsaken of the Blood Gorgons renegade chapter who is just setting out to become a warlord in the Great Beyond. A survivor of his former warband which wasall but destroyed by a greater warband's trechery, he came to the Askellon Sector to regroup and acquire the means to strike back, I made him a recurring nemesis...

Necrons I am not to sure of unleashing upon the sector, maybe have the warband go on acult/relic hunt deep in the bowels of a hive only to come across a dormant tomb and inadvertantly startle the guardian (e.g. scarabs) but not armed warriors.

A few more tyranid bioforms wouldn't go amiss, and maybe its time genestealer cults got a treatment. Otherwise I dont think it impossible the Slaugth or stryxis would not be present in the Askellon sector taking advantage of the misery and conflict.

On the heresy side of things, not sure if the Temple Tendency would have a stake here but cetainly the Logicians and the pheanonites (to those who dont know, this radical faction originated from amidst the xanthites but went further by testing and supllying their dark woorks to the enemy - to be disowned even by the xanthites).

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Isn't this just a case of... there are only a limited amount of pages in a supplement book, can't please everybody? So it's logical that they focus on the actual sector that DH2 resides in.

 

And it gives previous RPG lines still a purpose as well. If you want whole lists of vehicles, Only War is the way to go for example.

Edited by Gridash

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To answer the point about DH2 being based in Askellon... well, being rather new to FFG games, I wasn't expecting this specific sector being so ingrained into the game :( I expected it would be treated like the cities in the various White Wolf games: each game introduces a city with NPCs, plotlines etc., but you can play anywhere. Meanwhile, it seems that DH2 is so strongly focused on Askellon that it's actually limiting to other options. I realize it's a design choice, but it's a design choice I didn't expect. So, I'm a little disappointed here...

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@Varsovian

 

True, in some extent DH2e is different to cWoD/nWoD settings (actually like V20/V20 DA myself), in that it is linked with the Askellon Sector as a ready made background setting (a region which is but a speck in the vast Imperium).

 

I liked New York by Night and similarly for V: Dark Ages Constantinople by Night, layered and with a list of vampire NPCs with enough skullduggery to lure the troupe into and the factions to serve as foils. However, and you are right in a way, the approach would not quite work in the WH40K setting. A book like Enemy Beyond covers aspects of the Ordo Malleus and their attempts to root out heresy in the past and present among the masses of humanity, as well as combatting the adversary from the warp. Specific worlds within the region are covered as well as conspiraties/threats, along with notable factions/NPC highlighted which could pose threats or assistance, where appropriate.

 

However, the sidebar on p.321 of the core rules states that if somewhat limited/constrained by the setting feel free to change as appropriate.

 

From time to time I staged flashback sessions to the old Calixis Sector from DH1e with minor tweaking, and during DH1e a min-campaign I recall was setting amidst the Hive Gangs of Necromunda spire, where the GM had a faceless inquisitor recruit the hive gang we were in to act as guides down in the underhive to track down a radical cell. Fun, but it didn't end well...

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For example: Enemies Without. The book doesn't really cover all of the xenos from WH40K universe.

 

I've said elsewhere that I was really disappointed that EW only covered some of the 'standard' 40K xenos, and didn't introduce any new, sector-specific xenos, as both DH1 (Slaught, Yu'Vath) and Rogue Trader (Stryxis, Rak,Gol) have done, to good effect. A major missed opportunity...

Edited by Adeptus-B

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I've said elsewhere that I was really disappointed that EW only covered some of the 'standard' 40K xenos, and didn't introduce any new, sector-specific xenos, as both DH1 (Slaught, Yu'Vath) and Rogue Trader (Stryxis, Rak,Gol) have done, to good effect. A major missed opportunity...

 

I my opinion, having little of the major ones and lots of the minor ones made it so much better, because it made eldars, orks and others being enigmatic and different again while giving nrew species for players and GM to have fun with!

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I really like the format of the Enemies 'x' books and enjoy the content within (although I still don't get the purpose behind Inquests but that's another matter  :P ). My only concern with them is that it's unclear who they are for. Players will get a lot of value from the book sure, but the last third of each book is arguably for GM eyes only. That's a large section which is wasted for players meaning that players probably shouldn't buy it. If only GMs are buying these books, that's a lot less sales for FFG which puts continued support of the line at risk which is quite an issue in the wake of both Black Crusade and Only War.

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Therefore I think this style of book is a perfect solution.

 

There is important information for GMs and players alike. And as there are no adventures inside, there is no real GM-only part imo.

Even if the chars dont get to know certain information, players might very well be interested in some backgrounds of askellon for improved immersion..

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The last third of each book, whilst not full campaign ideas are excellent campaign layouts for a GM to use. Personally I'd rather my players didn't read those bits as I'm going to use some of them when the published materials run out. That is but one man's opinion though :D

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Regarding Hybrids, why are there NOT stats for Hybrids?  I never got much into 1st Ed Dark Heresy and Co; I always assumed they were somewhere in there.  You indicating there are not any seems...  Unwise?  Especially for a Dark Heresy game, where Purebreed Genestealers generally go through Acolytes like butter.  The Hybrids make much better foes for Dark Heresy level shenanigans.

Because Genestealer Hybrids (and Genestealer Cults) haven't been part of 40K for the better part of 15-20 years.

 

Well... until today. 

BYE

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Except they still reference Genestealers tainting humanity/making hybrids?  This is out of Rogue Trader (Into the Storm, pg. 249), for example:

 

"†Genestealer’s Kiss: Genestealers possess ovipositors in their maws that implants victims with alien DNA, seeding the target’s body with a parasite that will grow and form a hybrid creature. Over time, a group of hybrids eventually breed purestrain genestealers, infiltrating societies from within. Immediate effects are: if bitten by a genestealer (which can only happen if the target is helpless or incapacitated), the target must pass a Challenging (+0) Toughness Test. If he fails, he becomes a host for the alien DNA, and cares for the implanted hybrid as if it was his own child until it emerges. The DNA taint can only be removed by a Very Hard (–30) Medicae Test and use of advanced medicae facilities."

 

This is Sunerisle Strain, which is apparently more like Alien, but still makes hybrids that provide more purebreeds over time.  

 

Also, if that is an announcement, awesome.

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