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At first, I thought it was a reasonable change.

 

But on second reading of the talent, Utility Belt actually lets you produce explosives in exchange for DP.  Granting the talent what amounts to a free grenade every game session seems like it could be problematic, depending on the player and the books used.   

 

If you make the change, you may want to get very specific about the exact weapons/explosives you will allow it to produce.

 

Additionally, after reading Desslok's thread on just what the talent can produce, I do think you will want to put some kind of limited usage on whatever item is produced.  In other words, sure they have a medikit, but after this game session it will be used up.  That kind of thing. 

 

Again, depending on player and the kind of campaign you're running, granting free loot to the talent owner can upset the group balance.

Edited by Bladehate

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At first, I thought it was a reasonable change.

 

But on second reading of the talent, Utility Belt actually lets you produce explosives in exchange for DP.  Granting the talent what amounts to a free grenade every game session seems like it could be problematic, depending on the player and the books used.   

 

If you make the change, you may want to get very specific about the exact weapons/explosives you will allow it to produce.

 

Additionally, after reading Desslok's thread on just what the talent can produce, I do think you will want to put some kind of limited usage on whatever item is produced.  In other words, sure they have a medikit, but after this game session it will be used up.  That kind of thing. 

 

Again, depending on player and the kind of campaign you're running, granting free loot to the talent owner can upset the group balance.

This made me laugh. I was like "Social encounter... whoops! Grenade? Where'd that come from?" Like endless rabbits out of a hat, stockpiling grenades...just in case.

Nope.

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Yeah that can become ridiculous rather easily.

 

Even without making it a free use per session, I would personally house rule all items made with this talent to only last for the session they were created in.

 

Otherwise you're also likely to see this scenario at some point:

 

Player:  "Oh, cool.  We're done for the day?  I see we have 2 DPs, and daddy really needs some high priced items to vendor later.  Lemme just flip those over, and score some free loot."

 

GM:  <flips all the DPs back again>  "So, a bolt of lightning strikes your character.  For next game session, please have a new one ready.  Those narrative mishaps sure are killer, huh?"

 

I'd rather just avoid that scenario entirely, personally.

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I don't entirely disagree with you, but making such a change would also defeat the point of the talent to some extent.

 

To begin with, the standard use of DPs already let's you produce items you need out of thin air.  Obviously, this is heavily dependent on working with your GM, and he or she has full veto rights.

 

This talent is more defined, but that same definition also makes it harder for a GM to disallow, outside of just being a jerk.

 

There's a balance between allowing this talent to function and be useful, and either overpowering it or emasculating it.

 

Personally, as a GM I would prefer to be more forgiving in the heat of the moment.  I would prefer to allow a broader use of the talent, but with the caveat that the item thus manifested is more of a jury rigged monstrosity unlikely to function for long (MacGuyver style).  That way I let the talent be useful, but don't have to worry about characters manifesting manufactured items out of the books and jotting it down on their sheets.

Edited by Bladehate

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Well I wouldn't let them use it to make stuff appear that they don't own. If they insist to do that then tell them they have to pay triple the listed price for the item. I'm mean I know.

 

That's your prerogative, certainly.

 

Its also directly against the stated wording of the talent, and nerfs it into being nearly useless.

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Well I wouldn't let them use it to make stuff appear that they don't own. If they insist to do that then tell them they have to pay triple the listed price for the item. I'm mean I know.

 

That's your prerogative, certainly.

 

Its also directly against the stated wording of the talent, and nerfs it into being nearly useless.

 

 

Alright then I would let them use it but make them pay triple for the item.

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No, what I mean is Destiny Points can, to a reasonabe extend, be used to make sure you did not forget to bring the rebreathers from the ship. Rebreathers you own and bought yourself.

The talent can be used to pull a rebreather from your belt eventhough you never specifically went out to obtain one.

 

There in lies the difference.

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Alright then I would let them use it but make them pay triple for the item.

 

Again, directly against the wording of the talent.  I'm sorry to play devil's advocate, but it's still a heavy nerf to the talent.  Essentially, all you're doing is allowing a player to purchase anywhere, at increased cost.  While that might certainly be a worthwhile talent, in itself...it is not this talent. 

 

Certainly, if you had a player wanting to play a MacGuyver style of character and relying on this talent for some of his concept, there would be a need to re-evaluate things.

 

 

No, what I mean is Destiny Points can, to a reasonabe extend, be used to make sure you did not forget to bring the rebreathers from the ship. Rebreathers you own and bought yourself.

The talent can be used to pull a rebreather from your belt eventhoug

 

That is not how Destiny Points are used.  They allow the players to request, and the GM to grant, items that further the cause of the story.  Examples directly given are finding a med kit in an emergency response vehicle, a vital part in a junk pile and edible fruits on trees.

 

Page 27 and especially page 315 make it pretty clear that these items are not previously acquired and "remembered", but granted to the group.

 

This talent allows a player to expand on this, removing some of the interaction with the GM in favor of stricter guidelines on items that can be produced.

Edited by Bladehate

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Alright then I would let them use it but make them pay triple for the item.

 

Again, directly against the wording of the talent.  I'm sorry to play devil's advocate, but it's still a heavy nerf to the talent.  Essentially, all you're doing is allowing a player to purchase anywhere, at increased cost.  While that might certainly be a worthwhile talent, in itself...it is not this talent. 

 

Certainly, if you had a player wanting to play a MacGuyver style of character and relying on this talent for some of his concept, there would be a need to re-evaluate things.

 

 

No, what I mean is Destiny Points can, to a reasonabe extend, be used to make sure you did not forget to bring the rebreathers from the ship. Rebreathers you own and bought yourself.

The talent can be used to pull a rebreather from your belt eventhoug

 

That is not how Destiny Points are used.  They allow the players to request, and the GM to grant, items that further the cause of the story.  Examples directly given are finding a med kit in an emergency response vehicle, a vital part in a junk pile and edible fruits on trees.

 

Page 27 and especially page 315 make it pretty clear that these items are not previously acquired and "remembered", but granted to the group.

 

 

No, what I said is within the restrictions as specified in the talent. It says, "Spend 1 Destiny Point to perform a Utility Belt incidental; produce a previously undocumented item or weapon (with restrictions) from a tool belt or a satchel." Great they can pull out a grenade, but the restriction is 3 times the normal cost.

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No, what I said is within the restrictions as specified in the talent. It says, "Spend 1 Destiny Point to perform a Utility Belt incidental; produce a previously undocumented item or weapon (with restrictions) from a tool belt or a satchel." Great they can pull out a grenade, but the restriction is 3 times the normal cost.

 

 

No, that's your restriction.

 

The as written restriction is that the item be small (this can be subjective) and no greater than Rarity 4, and if its a weapon must have Limited 1 ammo quality.

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No, what I said is within the restrictions as specified in the talent. It says, "Spend 1 Destiny Point to perform a Utility Belt incidental; produce a previously undocumented item or weapon (with restrictions) from a tool belt or a satchel." Great they can pull out a grenade, but the restriction is 3 times the normal cost.

 

 

No, that's your restriction.

 

The as written restriction is that the item be small (this can be subjective) and no greater than Rarity 4, and if its a weapon must have Limited 1 ammo quality.

 

 

Okay, I would still make them pay for it. Nothing in life is free.

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Alright then I would let them use it but make them pay triple for the item.

 

Again, directly against the wording of the talent.  I'm sorry to play devil's advocate, but it's still a heavy nerf to the talent.  Essentially, all you're doing is allowing a player to purchase anywhere, at increased cost.  While that might certainly be a worthwhile talent, in itself...it is not this talent. 

 

Certainly, if you had a player wanting to play a MacGuyver style of character and relying on this talent for some of his concept, there would be a need to re-evaluate things.

 

 

No, what I mean is Destiny Points can, to a reasonabe extend, be used to make sure you did not forget to bring the rebreathers from the ship. Rebreathers you own and bought yourself.

The talent can be used to pull a rebreather from your belt eventhoug

 

That is not how Destiny Points are used.  They allow the players to request, and the GM to grant, items that further the cause of the story.  Examples directly given are finding a med kit in an emergency response vehicle, a vital part in a junk pile and edible fruits on trees.

 

Page 27 and especially page 315 make it pretty clear that these items are not previously acquired and "remembered", but granted to the group.

 

This talent allows a player to expand on this, removing some of the interaction with the GM in favor of stricter guidelines on items that can be produced.

 

 

In fact that is how they are used as well. And I am pretty sure this is in fact in one of the books (I am at work now so can't look it up) or I might have heard GM Chris and Dave discuss it on the order 66 Podcast.

Sure you can use them in the way that they grant the pc's something they need to progress as well with GM Fiat or even GM proposition, however that is not to say that is the same as the talent.

The talent allows for a player to determine for himself what he takes from his belt as long as it falls within the limits of the description.

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The talent allows for a player to determine for himself what he takes from his belt as long as it falls within the limits of the description.

 

 

And that's the power (and the problem) with the talent.

 

However, if you change it to "remembered" rather than "created", you are nerfing the talent heavily.

 

The items in question are already determined to be small, handheld items.  Your tech/scout should already be carrying all items fitting this description on his person in 95% all situations to begin with.  Allowing him to use it to produce a grenade in a prison or social situation seems like an extremely niche function of the talent.

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Okay, I would still make them pay for it. Nothing in life is free.

 

 

Sure, I would say that's a fair compromise.  In fact, I would update my own houserule with that:

 

If a character wants the item to last beyond the scene, he must invest the cost of the item in order to make it a permanent part of his gear lists.  Otherwise, the item ceases to function when its immediate use ends.

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And that's the power (and the problem) with the talent.

 

 

 

I wouldn't call it a problem... The player invested xp into this and it seems like a nice talent to play around with.

The problem some people have with RAW here seem to be the same problem some have with Bad Motivator which is also a pretty funny and interesting talent.

There is always GM fiat involved with every decision in every game and the idea that someone would take a grenade from a utility belt in a prison cell makes me wonder how the PC took anything with him/her into the cell. It is not like he/she is literally pulling things from thin air, the talent is called Utility Belt for a reason and what warden would let anyone enter a cell wearing that?

Edited by DanteRotterdam

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I'm thinking of changing the Utility Belt talent. Instead of flipping a DP, I'd change it to once per session.

Thoughts?

Edit: No, not thoughts. Constructive discussion. I'd rather not open another worm can.

Okay, I'll lead off with the fact that I'm only thinking about taking the talent and have not actually seen it in play yet. That said, the "Anyone can flip a point for an item" functionality seemed more of a "The GM doesn't want to bring the game to a halt" more than them giving out free swag.

 

"Oh crap, the Mon Calamari is swimming away with The MacGuffin and none of us thought to bring rebreathers" verses "Lets see. . . Jelly Babies, yo-yo, Sonic Screwdriver, half eaten apple. . . ah! Here we go, forged documents!" One prevents stalling the game with busy work by forcing the players to go back to the ship, get the rebreathers and come back while the other is more functional. And more importantly the GM can say No to Anyone Can Flip option at any time. Yes he can say no to the Talent, but it harder when you have guidelines (at least harder without looking like an jerk)

 

 

Player:  "Oh, cool.  We're done for the day?  I see we have 2 DPs, and daddy really needs some high priced items to vendor later.  Lemme just flip those over, and score some free loot."

 

 

I would hope that Common Sense would dictate that you can't do that. I certainly wouldn't try as a player and I wouldn't allow it as a GM. (but sadly as we've seen in other threads, Common Sense is an uncommon super power).

 

 

Well I wouldn't let them use it to make stuff appear that they don't own. If they insist to do that then tell them they have to pay triple the listed price for the item. I'm mean I know.

 
Yeah, not a fan of that. If my GM were to make that change, I would never take the talent and be annoyed as hell as they just killed one of the cool things about the archetype.
 
 

Okay, I would still make them pay for it. Nothing in life is free.

 

This is true. In this instance, my Things cost me 15 experience points - a resource arguably FAR more valuable than money.

Edited by Desslok

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I'm thinking of changing the Utility Belt talent. Instead of flipping a DP, I'd change it to once per session.

Thoughts?

Edit: No, not thoughts. Constructive discussion. I'd rather not open another worm can.

Okay, I'll lead off with the fact that I'm only thinking about taking the talent and have not actually seen it in play yet. That said, the "Anyone can flip a point for an item" functionality seemed more of a "The GM doesn't want to bring the game to a halt" more than them giving out free swag.

 

"Oh crap, the Mon Calamari is swimming away with The MacGuffin and none of us thought to bring rebreathers" verses "Lets see. . . Jelly Babies, yo-yo, Sonic Screwdriver, half eaten apple. . . ah! Here we go, forged documents!" One prevents stalling the game with busy work by forcing the players to go back to the ship, get the rebreathers and come back while the other is more functional. 

 

 

Player:  "Oh, cool.  We're done for the day?  I see we have 2 DPs, and daddy really needs some high priced items to vendor later.  Lemme just flip those over, and score some free loot."

 

 

I would hope that Common Sense would dictate that you can't do that. I certainly wouldn't try as a player and I wouldn't allow it as a GM. (but sadly as we've seen in other threads, Common Sense is an uncommon super power).

 

 

Well I wouldn't let them use it to make stuff appear that they don't own. If they insist to do that then tell them they have to pay triple the listed price for the item. I'm mean I know.

 
Yeah, not a fan of that. If my GM were to make that change, I would never take the talent and be annoyed as hell as they just killed one of the cool things about the archetype.
 
 

Okay, I would still make them pay for it. Nothing in life is free.

 

This is true. In this instance, my Things cost me 15 experience points - a resource arguably FAR more valuable than money.

 

 

I subscribe to all these opinions.

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I would hope that Common Sense would dictate that you can't do that. I certainly wouldn't try as a player and I wouldn't allow it as a GM. (but sadly as we've seen in other threads, Common Sense is an uncommon super power).

 

I was attempting a bit of tongue in cheek humor, since a GM arbitrarily killing players with lightning bolts via DPs is also a breach of the social contract. 

 

That may not have worked out as I had hoped...

 

And yes, I prefer to be pre-emptive whenever possible (it isn't always) when it comes to rulings concerning problem areas or talents.  A talent that allows a player to produce items at will is certainly a talent with the potential for abuse and misunderstandings, even if it isn't taken to an extreme.  I actually have a player wanting to be a gadgeteer/MacGuyver style of character, so at some point this may be very relevant to my own campaign.

 

This is true. In this instance, my Things cost me 15 experience points - a resource arguably FAR more valuable than Money.

 

 

That depends on the campaign.  But on the surface, I agree with you.  Experience spent + the DP spent to activate the talent is a hefty expenditure.  However, I run groups where resources are group wide.  How you spend the money doesn't concern me at all, but I make an effort to ensure people are in the same ballpark.  This is just long habit, and very rarely have I found it to be a problem, with many people telling me they appreciated the effort made, as it let them relax at the table without concern for undue favoritism or imbalanced distributions.  It also helps reduce those uncomfortable moments where players try to hoard something, or outright steal from others. 

 

But then again, I run my games as co-op these days, rather than allowing PvP.  Not saying it can't happen or shouldn't happen when character personalities clash, but I make an effort to smooth away those areas that I've seen lead to conflict between players.  And unfair or uneven resource distribution is definitely one of those problematic areas. 

 

Hence why I personally would houserule that the functionality of the talent remains unchanged.  I would even go so far as to loosen the rarity and size restrictions, to a limited extent.  The cost comes if you want to permanently list that item on your sheet.  I think its an acceptable compromise between keeping that MacGuyver feeling, and still keeping the talent balanced with the rest of the people at the table.  The talent let's you manifest a wide range of items, at will.  And in this case, without the GM preventing it, as I've given my tacit pre-approval.  I think that's worth 15 xp + a DP, although your mileage may vary.

 

Of course, I do the same thing with any items gifted via Deus Ex Machina.  If they want to keep the item(s) around after the scene in question, they need to spend the actual resources on it.  You can justify it however you want (filters for the re-breathers, restocking the med kit), but the end result should still be credits spent in order to list new assets on the sheet.

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This is one of the defining talents in the outlaw tech tree.  Gimping it is doing your players a major disservice.

 

The GM should enforce a little common sense, but otherwise let it go as written.  Sure, it will occasionally throw a wrench into your storyline (possibly literally given the talent) but you need to be able to think on your feet and expect the occasional derailment.  That's part of the fun of the game.

Edited by Split Light

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