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SgtSmackface

Lack of Discipline in and Ultramarine, and Penance.

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EDITED: I really got worked up but that won't solve anything and least of all this situation. Therefor I have deleted this content, mostly. I do regret this whole discussion as I let my tempers go off. I'm gonna try my plan, which is based on lots of verbal communication with him, and see where that goes. I don't at all feel as worked up as I was before.

 

Also note the rest of the group are probably fairly cool with him.

 

Hey, mate, don't take it too hard. Take into consideration that we're brainstorming under limited information here. It's inevitable that some extreme opinions and suggestions pop up - apparently we seem to mentally replace your guy with our most problematic experience after all, myself included :rolleyes: I personally don't think the whole issue is worth being so worked up over - it's just harder to have your empathy towards someone we don't know and try to partially reconstruct based on fragmentary knowledge.

 

Anyway, I say you do it your way wherever it may lead, and, I cannot stress enough, if you need technical or narrative advice to handle certain steps along the road, we'll be all too happy to oblige - on the other hand, let the rest of it go, and don't let any of us tell you what to do with your friend. You know the situation along with the gaming and group dynamics best; you decide, period.

 

And if there's further /tg/-like unmoderated drama, Emperor help me, I'll gladly report myself to the nearest Commissar immediately (Long Live Friend Computer! Fun Is Mandatory! Failure to Report Unhappiness Is Treason! Treason Is Punishable by Death!) :D

Edited by musungu

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Why not? I knew some mates in various gaming groups who were amazing (or at least normal) people when not gaming, but during gaming, they transformed to disruptive pieces of crap, because they thought playing their edgelord characters to the hilt is what "true roleplay" is. I think we're all familiar with the lines: "But I'm only doing what my character would do! How can you call that disruptive and bad roleplaying?" And also remember that if the player in question is embedded in the circle of friends and is a good company otherwise, it can be awfully hard to cut him/her from the gaming group, because it can have powerful ripple effects elsewhere. Resigning as a GM is keeping the friend with minimal collateral damage.

 

Also, are we really having a That Guy thread right now? I thought that's well within /tg/ territory :D

 

I've had that "But I'm only roleplaying my character!" line thrown at me before. I don't see it as an immunity to consequences, both in-game and out-of-game. And these days, I either game with people I can trust not to act up or new people who seem to get the idea.

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We've started talking about this now. The matter is that the player feels as if Space Marines, from what he's read and seen, are brainwashed automons without character beyond what their Chapter gives them and is feeling almost, or just as, bad as me about the whole things from a sense of being limited and confined to essentially play a robot and that I'm punishing him for playing the game wrong and not allowing him to play the character that I myself approved at character creation. So I have sent him a e-mail about how I view the point of "nature vs nurture" for Space Marines, prospects of individualism vs collectivism within a Chapter and some other topics. I expect to make some concessions on how I understand 40k universe to work and what Space Marines are but hopefully we can reach an middle ground for this campaign and get the game back on track.

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So he said he played them like he read about them?

I kinda have my doubts about that.

 

Also I doubt that you approved a Character at Creation that contradicts ANY fluff in existence about Astartes for he crossed the line of an individualistic or somewhat unorthodox chapter/marine by a multitude of EXTREME actions.

 

In the end this just sound to me like his cop out is making himself somewhat of a victim here too - and that speaks of bad character.

 

And reaching a Middle Ground? Oh my. This should include ALL the players for this may result in a fundamental fluff change to make this Edgelord-Marine work and this has a serious impact on other characters that were created according to fluff.

To now have a special snowflake that is given so much more freedom while the others stick to the actual way of being an Astarte is just not "equal treatment". I try to avoid the word "fair" here for playing an astartes, as he is supposed to be, is nothing bad to begin with.

Also there is actually plenty of space for individualistic Astartes, especially if you take a look at Space Wolves or the very nature of the Deathwatch that sometimes receives Marines that do not fit into the regular Chapter hierarchy and order.

The thing is tho that he seems to know no limits and my advice to you as a GM is to stay strong, not just for yourself but also the other players. You have given this man so much special treatment so far, keep in mind that there are more players and that they might not be such oblivious guys that openly voice their dislike or discomfort but may slow and silently fade away.

As a GM you should have shown him how you view Astartes, how the fluff supports it and that he has to live up to this standard. Meeting in the middle ground is imho not an option here for either you play an Astartes (With all the freedom there is precedence for) or you don't.

 

It may be better for you guys (If you still are unable to ditch him) if you went for a Dark Heresy or Only War campaign. There you can have any facet of character (In DH it is still supposed to be a professional tho) and play it out. Tho a Commissar might still have a word with you that sounds like "Blam" if you cross the line. But as Space Marines are, they have certain personality quirks and features you have to live up to.

Edited by FieserMoep

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... I'm calling BS.

 

There is, so far as I am aware, little or nothing in the fluff to support the notion that Astartes are brainedwashed, mindless automatons, who are without a sense of individuality. 

At least, in the 40k fluff. I believe that something along those lines is true in the Starcraft Space Marine fluff, but that's an entirely different franchise.

 

 

Plenty of room and precedent for freedom and individuality amongst the Astartes. Admittedly, some Chapters are more conformist than others, and within a Chapter, Astartes generally don't stray that far from their baseline/norms for their Chapter, but every Chapter's different (mostly/usually) to one degree or another.

 

 

If he really felt bad about playing a massively disruptive character "because that's what the Chapter he's from has reprogrammed his brain and personality into", he wouldn't be playing a character from that Chapter in the first place - which, I believe was said to be a custom Chapter of his choosing/making.

 

 

For that matter, somebody in the Imperium would have needed to sign off on creating the Chapter in the first place; I rather doubt that the Imperium would have signed off on creating a Chapter with that kind of character mindset/outlook. If they were like him, they'd've gotten purged before the Chapter was created, and if a Chapter were still needed, the Imperium would've started over.

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What follows is stated as strong opinion, and in no way fact, but...

(adressed to the Gurkhal, of course.)

 

From what I have read here, you have a player with whom you have a friendship or other, deep, relationship, and you owe him (gratitude, debt, something else?) for reasons undisclosed. By catering to his whims, I believe you have allowed real-life influences to affect your game. It is, in a way, like a situation where the game master is actively favouring his girlfriend/wife/sibling/other deep relationship, at the expense of the others at the table. Whether they realize it or not, you are short-handing the other players.

 

For starters, I think you have crossed the first line of "don'ts" with allowing a custom chapter, specifically with that "middle finger attitude". I do not know why, perhaps your own knowledge of the 40K universe is lacking, perhaps you just thought it could be fun, but for whatever reason, it is there. And from 'there' it all seems to have gone south of acceptable real fast.

 

I play roleplaying games with friends and family at somebody's home. I play with total strangers at conventions and gaming stores. I could expect behaviour such as you described from total strangers; a loose cannon, going against established fluff and table manners, disrupting the game for no appearent reason other than 'to be different'. None of my friends would ever disrespect my authority as game master, or disrespect the feel and tone of the game setting, like that. When I say 'no', they trust me to have a reason for saying 'no', and we discuss the matter beforehand. If one of my friends suddenly started to behave in such a disruptive manner, I'd have to assume some mental issues popping up. Reason for a real heart-to-heart conversation. As equals, as friends, since we are both at the gaming table to share fun.

And fun is lacking. Otherwise you wouldn't be tempted to stop playing! Now here is, where I stop believing the player would actually be a friend. I don't know what happened between the two of you. But even if he would have been a firefighter, and had dragged my unconscious blob of a body out of a burning and crashing building, I doubt I would have given him such freedom and leeway. To me, the player actively seems to abuse whatever happened in your mutual past to allow him to wreak havoc on your game, and your fun. With the help of the good members of this forum (and with over 1.000 posts you are no stranger yourself) you have gathered solid advice, both for an in-game solution, and an out-of-game one. Then we have to read something about concessions and middle ground?

 

Second, I believe I have read that the other players don't have as much of a problem with this play style. It seems to me, they don't really give a flying rat's tail about the situation or they might have backed you up in this. They appear to derive just as much fun from seeing you and the problem player having a go at eachother (in-game, to say the least), as they would have from playing a heroic space marine in service to the Ordo Xenos, overcoming insurmountable odds and saving the day in glorious missions against Eldar assassins, Tyranid hordes, Ork Waaaaaaagggghs, and what not. In my not so humble opinion, these other players are just contributing to the problem by allowing it to be, instead of trying to solve it with the both of you.

 

Like javcs above me, I tend to call BS as well (and not in the "Ballistic Skill" kind of meaning, mind you). There are a lot of sources for Warhammer 40K fluff and background info. The only Space Marine automatons I could think of, would be the Rubicae, the members of the Thousand Sons Chaos Legion, and even they tend to have a short, bright moment every now and then. Just about every book I read shy of the Warhammer 40K miniatures games have Space Marines in them with thoughts, feelings, doubts, a personal name. They are hypnotically conditioned and trained to use their special implants, yes, but far, very far from brainwashed.

You're playing Deathwatch. It is a very specific sub-genre within the greater yet very specific Warhammer 40K roleplay line of books, set in the very specific grimdark universe of our own distant future. To me, that would mean I have already made that first step into something way different from Generic Fantasy World Setting number 789.456 with elves, and dwarves, and humans, and orcs, and goblins, and dragons. By choosing a very specific game which includes a very specific background you have shown an interest in a niche product. One could (probably incorrectly, I suppose) assume the players to have at least a basic level of understanding of the setting when choosing a game like Deathwatch. Imperial Space Marines from the Ordo Xenos are just a tad to specific to 'simply port them over' into another setting, such as 2020 Cyberpunk, or an Alien-versus-Predator like universe.

 

In short, you might not want to hear this, but you have a very disruptive player. It isn't a problem with the setting or the game. In my opinion, now would be the time to draw the line in the sand. This far, no further! A true friend would understand. I know, I have been there too.

 

Strength and good luck.

Edited by Xcapobl

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We've started talking about this now. The matter is that the player feels as if Space Marines, from what he's read and seen, are brainwashed automons without character beyond what their Chapter gives them and is feeling almost, or just as, bad as me about the whole things from a sense of being limited and confined to essentially play a robot and that I'm punishing him for playing the game wrong and not allowing him to play the character that I myself approved at character creation. So I have sent him a e-mail about how I view the point of "nature vs nurture" for Space Marines, prospects of individualism vs collectivism within a Chapter and some other topics. I expect to make some concessions on how I understand 40k universe to work and what Space Marines are but hopefully we can reach an middle ground for this campaign and get the game back on track.

 

 

There is a mountain of writing about Astartes, between manual background, novels, video games, etc and there are plenty of individual space marines who are far from "automatons". Even novels where they aren't main characters, authors usually make some distinction in personality between marines (e.g. the various Deathwatch marines in Dan Abnett's "Xenos"). Your player ignoring all that material makes his statements sound a lot like excuses for poor character behaviour.

 

Changing major elements of background to suit one person's character is a red flag for me.

Edited by Decessor

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