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SgtSmackface

Lack of Discipline in and Ultramarine, and Penance.

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Basically an Ultramarine in the killteam showed up to a training exercise drunk, and blamed it on a scout. he then proceeded to backtalk the squad commander, say "Hey man we all make mistakes we're only human" and then when his honor and past deeds were called into question tried to act like everyone else was undeserving and that he was actually better than us. The squad commander, a Red Scorpion, had none of this, needless to say. So what kind of penance can we put this guy through? Also, the Ultramarine happens to be a Tyrannic War Veteran and an aspiring Chaplain.

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I'd say that some severe penance is in order for this fragrant disrespect. I'd order him to spend every hour outside of combat contemplating the wisdom of his Primarch for a year, wear penance seals on his armor and his robe at all times, only satisfy himself with water to drink and be told to keep a low profile in all discussions and gatherings. Failure to adhere to this means he's shipped back to the Ultramarines with word of what happened, and then the really fun penance begins for him.

 

Maybe I'm to harsh, but I always figure that Space Marines hold themselves to a very high standard in regards to self-discipline and how to conduct themselves. Its no the same as our modern manners, but they should remember that they represent their Chapters in the Deathwatch and so this should draw down some heat on him.

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I'd say that some severe penance is in order for this fragrant disrespect. I'd order him to spend every hour outside of combat contemplating the wisdom of his Primarch for a year, wear penance seals on his armor and his robe at all times, only satisfy himself with water to drink and be told to keep a low profile in all discussions and gatherings. Failure to adhere to this means he's shipped back to the Ultramarines with word of what happened, and then the really fun penance begins for him.

 

Maybe I'm to harsh, but I always figure that Space Marines hold themselves to a very high standard in regards to self-discipline and how to conduct themselves. Its no the same as our modern manners, but they should remember that they represent their Chapters in the Deathwatch and so this should draw down some heat on him.

That's basically what I had thought, hopefully some others will hop on and comment, so I have a resounding "PUNISH HIM" or "DO NOT PUNISH HIM" that the GM can refer to.

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My question though is what the hell were they drinking to get a marine so drunk it bypassed all toxin defences? Was it the Fenrisian ale from a space wolf?

I think the most effective though would be to use different discipline tactics. If one member of the squad doesn't cooperate, punish the rest of them with gruelling activities such as a lengthy hundred mile run for a marine carrying heavy equipment. They should manage it but the psychological effect will cause them to feel frustration at the guy causing them to do this and can take it out on them later. You can spend your own time thinking of what they will be punished with that is arduous and unpleasant and this is an example.

Edited by Calgor Grim

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He has broken his oath as an Ultramarine. So strip him of his honor, flat out. The problem with trying to make the others take punishment for him, is this isn't the Astra Militarum. Space Marines won't except that, especially since, they clearly aren't from his chapter. No, you need to break him personally. Start by stripping his honor from him, that which he recently earned. Treat him as a non-equal, because as he is now, he's not equal. Guilliman would be ashamed. Strip him of specialist gear he may have. Force his penance with a boltgun and combat knife, don't even let him take special ammo. Make him earn it all back.

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He's definitely not going to make Chaplain anytime soon. If ever.

 

 

Group/unit punishment is a classic, although when it comes to Astartes it's probably more common when applied to neophytes than experienced marines.

His activities will go on his permanent record ... and it's quite likely that other Ultramarines/close successors in the Deathwatch will have a word with him about his disgracing the Chapter and the Primarch.

Continuing to disgrace the Chapter and the Primarch will get him dishonorably discharged from the Deathwatch or otherwise withdrawn/shipped back to Ultramar in disgrace. Upon his return to the Chapter, he will undergo punishment, and be assigned to the worst duties within the Chapter that keep him away from those outside the Chapter and the neophytes, and away from anything important. Possibly the Ultramarine's equivalent of a base in the middle of North Dakota - but not one of the missile bases.

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A resounding yes to punishment. Involve the Chaplains in Deathwatch - it's right up their alley, especially if he's an aspirant. If you can get an Ultramarine successor Chaplain, even better. As for punishments:

 

- No fancy gear for him: the Forge can clearly see he is not to be trusted with weaponry above the bare minimum. This also doubles as a penance.

- Penance objectives (at least a tertiary objective per mission): see the Adamant subplot in AoLS, p. 97 for a good example, where the Marine must pass all WP tests during the mission to complete the objective. It also allows the Brother to climb back after the surely massive Renown hit he took. He is now also first choice in unwanted missions.

- No leading the Kill-Team for a while (might be fluffed out as a vow of silence).

- If you're feeling particularly sadistic, make the Chaplains stick him in a Pain Glove (extended WP test, Insanity in case of failure).

 

And yes, shipping him back to his Chapter in disgrace is a possibility if he fails to perform.

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He's definitely not going to make Chaplain anytime soon. If ever.

 

 

Group/unit punishment is a classic, although when it comes to Astartes it's probably more common when applied to neophytes than experienced marines.

 

I would actually disagree, I think that group punishment works whatever the level you're on. If anyone gets a punishment because of the behaviour of one foolish individual then over time even the most battle hardened veterans will feel a level of resentment or dislike towards their fellow brothers which can be reflected in a notable modifier to their cohesion values. It's a psychological thing which allows it to continue working no matter the age or experience.

 

Whatever you do though, don't go with physical torture. You need to keep the marine loyal and if you are too harsh you risk them feeling resentment towards the Emperor and turning to Chaos. You need them to realise the consequences morally of their actions and have them reflect upon the impact it causes. Be subtle. Morale damage is a powerful thing.

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Whatever you do though, don't go with physical torture. You need to keep the marine loyal and if you are too harsh you risk them feeling resentment towards the Emperor and turning to Chaos. You need them to realise the consequences morally of their actions and have them reflect upon the impact it causes. Be subtle. Morale damage is a powerful thing.

 

I (partially) disagree, some (self-)flagellation might very well be in order if a Chaplain apprentice misbehaves. Nothing serious though, the rest is spot-on.

 

Also, check the effects of losing a relic on p. 161 in RoB: they offer some nice punishments applied to the game mechanics, with examples like the Marine counting as one Rank lower until the penance is deemed complete.

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Whatever you do though, don't go with physical torture. You need to keep the marine loyal and if you are too harsh you risk them feeling resentment towards the Emperor and turning to Chaos. You need them to realise the consequences morally of their actions and have them reflect upon the impact it causes. Be subtle. Morale damage is a powerful thing.

 

I (partially) disagree, some (self-)flagellation might very well be in order if a Chaplain apprentice misbehaves. Nothing serious though, the rest is spot-on.

 

Also, check the effects of losing a relic on p. 161 in RoB: they offer some nice punishments applied to the game mechanics, with examples like the Marine counting as one Rank lower until the penance is deemed complete.

Oh don't get me wrong, it has its uses but the problem is if you go overboard with it. I'm not saying it isn't useful but it would certainly be something to be careful on. Self flagellation is fine, beat yourself up is OK but doing it to another can be meaningless without planning. It's really easy to go mad with the pain stick but you need them to learn from it.

The other way to take this, rather than penalty is perhaps via some perhaps stress relief. Have their superior (and I mean superior in every way) recognise their change in attitude and invite them to a one on one meeting. Have the commander discuss what's on the marines mind while they have a sparring contest. Get the ultramarine to take a few swings and be parried or ducked while they discuss their issues with the boss. Then when they are reaching the peak of emotion or anger then have the boss put them in their place with a smack down similar to the bout at the start of the Ultramarines movie (decent voice acting, crap animation). They get it off their chest and then get knocked on their arse as an important lesson about teamwork and how self centered behavior leads to failure.

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He's definitely not going to make Chaplain anytime soon. If ever.

 

 

Group/unit punishment is a classic, although when it comes to Astartes it's probably more common when applied to neophytes than experienced marines.

 

I would actually disagree, I think that group punishment works whatever the level you're on. If anyone gets a punishment because of the behaviour of one foolish individual then over time even the most battle hardened veterans will feel a level of resentment or dislike towards their fellow brothers which can be reflected in a notable modifier to their cohesion values. It's a psychological thing which allows it to continue working no matter the age or experience.

 

Whatever you do though, don't go with physical torture. You need to keep the marine loyal and if you are too harsh you risk them feeling resentment towards the Emperor and turning to Chaos. You need them to realise the consequences morally of their actions and have them reflect upon the impact it causes. Be subtle. Morale damage is a powerful thing.

 

Oh, I'd agree that group punishment mostly works regardless of level ... but I'd also expect that the need for group punishment would generally be reduced as one grew more experienced - that is, the kinds of things that draw group punishments are most likely to occur in the neophytes, rather than experienced Astartes, if only because they'd mostly have been trained out of the neophyte before becoming an experienced Astartes.

The real life analogy would be - recruits get group punishments regularly. Regular units usually have specific punishments for the individual(s) screwing up, and when a regular unit undergoes group punishments, it's usually because something went majorly or systemically wrong.

 

 

This particular instance, if it is, as it appears to be, the first such instance, would not, IMO, be appropriate for group punishment - the rest of the killteam, judging by the OP, didn't know about what the Smurf was doing in advance, wouldn't have had any reason to suspect this to be a problem, and they're remonstrating with the Smurf, or trying to. They know that the Smurf's actions are inappropriate, they don't need to be taught that (which is an important component of group punishment).

A morale/cohesion penalty with anything involving the Smurf might well be appropriate, but I'd not hammer the rest of the group for the Smurf being fracked up. IE, next mission, perhaps the Smurf doesn't get to benefit from squad modes or the Oath like the rest of the group.

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The brother should absolutely be punished.

 

First of all, he deliberately went out of his way to become intoxicated and unable to perform his duties.

 

Second, he tried to pass the blame onto another.

 

Third, he is setting a terrible example for others, especially the scout he tried to pin blame on.

 

 

Astartes do have personality quirks and flaws, and some chapters are more tolerant of certain flaws than others. The Ultramarines chapter punished Captain Ventris for *victory*...with going against the codex. The punishment for flagrant disregard of duty should be harsh.

 

This battle brother should only see Chaplain after many decades of repentance and making up for his clear character flaws, if he ever is judged to have done so. Certainly no time soon. For an actual punishment, I suggest stripping him to minimal equipment until he learns humility. Mindcleansing if he keeps failing.

Edited by Decessor

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Thanks for the input everyone, the way it was dealt with is he may not lead the squad for a year, he may not eat or drink anything other than bread and water, also nutrient paste, and may not spend any time outside of combat doing anything other than meditate on the wisdom of Guilliman. He's probably going to be barred from chaplaincy if he doesn't prove himself either.

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It's not bad, but the effects are mostly narrative. If it satisfies you and the player, it's all right, but I'd still drive the point home a bit more with a Renown penalty and/or wargear requisition restriction at the very least. I guess that the punishment actually depends on how exactly the player/character decided it's a good idea. If the player is a relative newcomer, and the decision stems from his lack of knowledge in 40k lore, narrative punishment is absolutely enough, but if it was an experienced player who wanted to play merry hell with the rules, he probably had his good reasons and expected the consequences anyway, so you may feel free to hit him with the thunder hammer of justice. :)

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I have a question in regards to penance but most importantly in regards to the Deathwatch's reaction to, well, eccentric Marines The things is that I've got a Librarian who is caused hell and who might face penance, but I know, or feel, that the character will potentially violently reject any forms of attempts to enforce discipline or remove his personal gears as a punishment. I can totally seeing this character draw weapons and issuing threats of violence or attack officers in the Deathwatch if they try to enforce a penance on him. As well as him taking any and all attempts to break against the restrictions placed on him. Is there a way to handle this beyond sending the character packing and rolling up a new one? I figure the Deathwatch might have some experience with handling Marines from more eccentric Chapters and thus there could be a way other than potentially violent confrontation or sending the character back home?

Edited by Gurkhal

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I have a question in regards to penance but most importantly in regards to the Deathwatch's reaction to, well, eccentric Marines The things is that I've got a Librarian who is caused hell and who might face penance, but I know, or feel, that the character will potentially violently reject any forms of attempts to enforce discipline or remove his personal gears as a punishment. I can totally seeing this character draw weapons and issuing threats of violence or attack officers in the Deathwatch if they try to enforce a penance on him. As well as him taking any and all attempts to break against the restrictions placed on him. Is there a way to handle this beyond sending the character packing and rolling up a new one? I figure the Deathwatch might have some experience with handling Marines from more eccentric Chapters and thus there could be a way other than potentially violent confrontation or sending the character back home?

I would say that it heavily depends on what the Marine is doing that is causing problems.

Also, Deathwatch Chaplains are there to provide spiritual counsel to members of every Chapter. Mandatory counseling sessions might be imposed.

 

Any Marine who would violently resist discipline from a duly authorized superior is a disgrace to and dishonors his Chapter and Primarch, and would be slapped down hard and then sent back to his native Chapter naked and in chains, and then his Chapter superiors would give him the equivalent of the Sisters Repentia. For that matter, he might even be considered such a disgrace and dishonor that he would be considered as having gone over to Chaos, and his Gene-seed might well be considered unsuitable for implantation in any Loyal Neophyte.

Make sure that the player is aware of that.

 

 

There's also the fact that you can penalize gear without taking away standard issue equipment. Simply deny the character any Requisition, and give the other characters the same amount you'd've given them if the problem character were getting Requisition, or possibly hit them with a Requisition penalty, depending on whether or not the other characters are trying to moderate the problem character's issues. And make sure that the other characters don't spend Requisition on the problem character, or make things they get with the intent to have the problem character use cost extra Requisition.

 

 

 

It's important to note that there is a difference between eccentric and problematic or troublemaking. The former is a character quirk, the latter makes the Deathwatch not want you.

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I have a question in regards to penance but most importantly in regards to the Deathwatch's reaction to, well, eccentric Marines The things is that I've got a Librarian who is caused hell and who might face penance, but I know, or feel, that the character will potentially violently reject any forms of attempts to enforce discipline or remove his personal gears as a punishment. I can totally seeing this character draw weapons and issuing threats of violence or attack officers in the Deathwatch if they try to enforce a penance on him. As well as him taking any and all attempts to break against the restrictions placed on him. Is there a way to handle this beyond sending the character packing and rolling up a new one? I figure the Deathwatch might have some experience with handling Marines from more eccentric Chapters and thus there could be a way other than potentially violent confrontation or sending the character back home?

I would say that it heavily depends on what the Marine is doing that is causing problems.

Also, Deathwatch Chaplains are there to provide spiritual counsel to members of every Chapter. Mandatory counseling sessions might be imposed.

 

Any Marine who would violently resist discipline from a duly authorized superior is a disgrace to and dishonors his Chapter and Primarch, and would be slapped down hard and then sent back to his native Chapter naked and in chains, and then his Chapter superiors would give him the equivalent of the Sisters Repentia. For that matter, he might even be considered such a disgrace and dishonor that he would be considered as having gone over to Chaos, and his Gene-seed might well be considered unsuitable for implantation in any Loyal Neophyte.

Make sure that the player is aware of that.

 

 

There's also the fact that you can penalize gear without taking away standard issue equipment. Simply deny the character any Requisition, and give the other characters the same amount you'd've given them if the problem character were getting Requisition, or possibly hit them with a Requisition penalty, depending on whether or not the other characters are trying to moderate the problem character's issues. And make sure that the other characters don't spend Requisition on the problem character, or make things they get with the intent to have the problem character use cost extra Requisition.

 

 

 

It's important to note that there is a difference between eccentric and problematic or troublemaking. The former is a character quirk, the latter makes the Deathwatch not want you.

 

 

Some great points, especially the last line. A big question is: why is this librarian causing hell? Does he have a disregard for orders outside of his chapter? Does he hate other astartes? The Deathwatch take candidates from a variety of chapters, so they have experience in handling differing views. A chaplain would surely take the character aside by this point, if one is available. I don't see the leadership in Deathwatch tolerating insubordination, let alone violent, possibly traitorous acts against them.

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The problem is that the character has been pushing his use of the Warp and caused several Perils of the Warp, including breaking every monitor and mirror on a Deathwatch ship, caused daemonic visions and appearences of Warp Spectres which resulted in Corruption Points and Insanity Points for the Kill Team. And this was done on the briefing to, and execution, of his very first mission in the Deathwatch. And acting with a lack of social grace, like drawing his weapon in front of the Keeper on a Deathwatch ship without prior warning, which needless to say gav some bad signals to the Keeper, when out of the blue a new Librarian suddenly pulls out his force sword on him. That scene could have gone bad.

 

And note that this happened on the first session. I am pretty sure that there will be more crazy stuff coming so I'm getting ready to face it before it comes out. The major things seems to be a blatant disregard for consequences with pushing his psychic powers and causing Perils of the Warp, time and again.

 

On the plus side the Librarian has also provided usefulness with using divination to identify important information for the mission, toasted a squad of five Fire Warriors, one Broadside Battlesuit and gav another one serious damage that allowed his brothers in the Kill Team to neutralize it without much effort.

 

EDITED: I am glad that it seems that a hardline on insubordination seems to be in character for the Deathwatch.

 

In regards to the Chapter, its a custom one, and the player seems to be going with the line that they are pretty crazy and don't care much for what people outside the Chapter thinks of them. That's not all to them, but points that might come into relevance in regards to this.

Edited by Gurkhal

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The problem is that the character has been pushing his use of the Warp and caused several Perils of the Warp, including breaking every monitor and mirror on a Deathwatch ship, caused daemonic visions and appearences of Warp Spectres which resulted in Corruption Points and Insanity Points for the Kill Team. And this was done on the briefing to, and execution, of his very first mission in the Deathwatch. And acting with a lack of social grace, like drawing his weapon in front of the Keeper on a Deathwatch ship without prior warning, which needless to say gav some bad signals to the Keeper, when out of the blue a new Librarian suddenly pulls out his force sword on him. That scene could have gone bad.

Kick that guy from your game, because that is just being disruptive.

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The heck is he doing that's worth the dangers of Pushing at all, much less regularly, on a Deathwatch ship?

During the briefing?! That's just stupid. Triggering a Phenomena or a Perils on-mission is one thing, but while in pre-mission prep is a sign of incompetence.

 

 

Is there a reason the Librarian drew his weapon on the Keeper? The Keeper is the next-best thing to the God-Emperor on his ship. Ship Captains are traditionally described as being "Master after God", after all.

 

 

Ah, what Legion/Chapter is this custom Chapter a Successor to?

They may not care what others think of them for the most part, but they ought to care a great deal about what certain people think about them - superiors in the Deathwatch, the Inquisition (nobody wants an Inquisitor taking an interest in their Chapter), the AdMech (who's responsible for making most of the gear and training tech-marines? the AdMech - for that matter, Tech-Marines are kind of part of the AdMech). This Librarian may not care what others think of him, but his in-Chapter superiors will not be pleased with him if his behavior gets him sent home in disgrace by the Deathwatch.

Depending on who this Chapter is Successor to, there's likely an element of caring about what they think about this Chapter.

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To be fair, there are chapters who have serious problems dealing with outsiders. They're even possible to create using the Rites of Battles rules.

 

However, those chapters tend to make enemies and then get smashed or get wiped out. And a chapter whose most Deathwatch-compliant candidate acts like *that*? They're surely heading for a gruesome end, as would-be allies either abandon them in disgust or outright turn on them for "the good of the Imperium".

Edited by Decessor

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The problem is that the character has been pushing his use of the Warp and caused several Perils of the Warp, including breaking every monitor and mirror on a Deathwatch ship, caused daemonic visions and appearences of Warp Spectres which resulted in Corruption Points and Insanity Points for the Kill Team. And this was done on the briefing to, and execution, of his very first mission in the Deathwatch. And acting with a lack of social grace, like drawing his weapon in front of the Keeper on a Deathwatch ship without prior warning, which needless to say gav some bad signals to the Keeper, when out of the blue a new Librarian suddenly pulls out his force sword on him. That scene could have gone bad.

Kick that guy from your game, because that is just being disruptive.

 

 

Won't do. We go way back, been playing for many years together and out-of-game stuff as well.

 

The heck is he doing that's worth the dangers of Pushing at all, much less regularly, on a Deathwatch ship?

During the briefing?! That's just stupid. Triggering a Phenomena or a Perils on-mission is one thing, but while in pre-mission prep is a sign of incompetence.

 

 

Is there a reason the Librarian drew his weapon on the Keeper? The Keeper is the next-best thing to the God-Emperor on his ship. Ship Captains are traditionally described as being "Master after God", after all.

 

 

Ah, what Legion/Chapter is this custom Chapter a Successor to?

They may not care what others think of them for the most part, but they ought to care a great deal about what certain people think about them - superiors in the Deathwatch, the Inquisition (nobody wants an Inquisitor taking an interest in their Chapter), the AdMech (who's responsible for making most of the gear and training tech-marines? the AdMech - for that matter, Tech-Marines are kind of part of the AdMech). This Librarian may not care what others think of him, but his in-Chapter superiors will not be pleased with him if his behavior gets him sent home in disgrace by the Deathwatch.

Depending on who this Chapter is Successor to, there's likely an element of caring about what they think about this Chapter.

 

I might have used the wrong term, and perhaps planning would be a more correct English word for it? Anyway he used it to activate divination that produced the results where their target was located in a pro-Tau rebel base and also learned what kind of opponents they would face, allow the team to gear up with weapons appropriete for taking on Tau suits, all in all allowing for a very efficent planning and initial part of the mission.

 

The reason he drew his force sword was that it was his psy-focus and so he needed it up to gain its benefit, but he never mentioned this to anyone before or after the incident where he nearly got into a fight with a really suprised and pissed Keeper.

 

The custom Chapter are descended from the Blood Angels.

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That makes the character's actions a bit more understandable, but it's on him to accept how things are done in the Deathwatch. Pushing is risky, especially to others around the Librarian, and thus should not be resorted to lightly. He should have thought through the consequences of drawing a weapon suddenly for no obvious reason in front of a superior. His behaviour does not reflect well on the judgement of his chapter who sent him as a candidate.

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This sounds more like a problem with the player than the character to me, try to remind him "this isn't what astartes do really do you want to do this?" when he draws a weapon for no reason in front of the Emperor for all intents and purposes

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There's a place where dangerous warp-dabbling can be done in relative safety, and that's the Librarium (and an Astartes ship is supposed to have one, however small it may be). If your player feels like pushing the limits, it's extremely careless to disregard the safety net provided by a warded room and maybe fellow Libbys. Someone in the DW will make sure he gets that.

 

It's a bit tough to punish a player for unintentional oversights in how the 40k universe works, but if he's playing in it for years, he needs to get a slap on his hand. Libbys are constantly playing with fire, so they're trained to avoid stupid (or any other possible) risks, that's frigging Librarian Training 101, everything should come only after that. I'd say put a psy-dampener on him for a while, have his penitence in a nice heavy collar without fancy powers - it is totally fitting in DW that some officer (like a pissed-off Keeper) decides he relies on his gifts too heavily and needs to re-learn how to be a Space Marine again. Heck, that's how the Deathwatch novel by Steve Parker begins, and it's just normal introductory training, not even a punishment or something.

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