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Baer

Verena - Combat Momentum : Timing question

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Hello, 

The Combat Momentum cards reads


 

1Strain : Use when an adjacent hostile figure is defeated to gain 2 movement points. 

___________________________________________________________________

When you use "Close Quarters" you can move up to 1 space before performing an attack. 

 

 

 

During Verenas Activation everything is fine, but what happens if an adjacent figure to Verena is defeated outside of her activation. 

If she uses Close Quarters and moves the 1 Space given by Combat Momentum can she use the first part of Combat Momentum as it responds to the same trigger "An adjacent figure was defeated" or does every ability check for its own possible trigger? 

That means:

If an adjacent hostile figure is defeated and Verena gains the 2 movement points for 1 Strain she is afterwards not adjacent to an hostile figure that was just defeated. Is she then still able to trigger Close Quarters? And Vice Versa.

 

Cheers,

Bär.

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When abilities have the same trigger, their order is defined by Timing. Because these both are Verena's abilities, she decides the order. There are very few delayed abilities in the game. Abilities do not trigger first and then performed, their triggers are checked in the order specified by timing. (Some recent rulings are consistent with this, Final Blast/Parting Shot + recover.)

 

When it is her activation, she can save the movement points for later, because they are not given out by a special action. If it is not her activation, she needs to spend them immediately.

 

Unfortunately, the way I see it, spending movement points will cause the trigger point "defeated" to pass. It is no longer when an adjacent figure was defeated because time has passed. She can no longer trigger Close Quarters. (Even if she moved to somewhere adjacent to the space the defeated figure was on. The figure is already removed at this point, so she can't even be adjacent to it.)

 

0) a figure is defeated

1) Verena is adjacent, so she takes the 2mp for 1 strain from Combat Momentum.

2) She spends them.

- She can't use Close Quarters because it's no longer when an adjacent hostile figure is defeated

 

However, she can use the latter half of Combat Momentum.

0) a figure is defeated

1) Verena is adjacent, so she triggers Close Quarters.

2) Before performing Close Quartes she can move 1 space.

3) She performs Close Quarters

- She can't buy 2 mp from Combat Momentum, because it's no longer when an adjacent hostile figure is defeated

 

(There is a similar case (although during a figure's activation) with Command+Masterstroke. Gideon can't spend movement points between Command and Masterstroke, because then the time would not be "after resolving Command" anymore, the trigger needed for Masterstroke.)

 

During her activation she can get the movement points first, because the movement points can be stashed into her movement point pool and she can trigger Close Quarters (immediately) after, when it is still "when an adjacent hostile figure is defeated".

Edited by a1bert

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I think during Verena's activation you gain the movement points and there isn't much conflict. The confusing part is when it is not her activation. I would say she can use both affects as long as she can qualify for both but can't stack effects for later use. I look at it like this... multiple things can happen during a timing instance with the order being determined by the RRGp9 (conflicts). I will try and draw a picture with text. d is the defeated timing instance, m is the combat momentum timing instance, q is the close quarters timing instance.

 

d->m->(gain and use 2 mp)->m->d->(if still eligible trigger close quarters)->q->m->(move up to one space)->m->q->(resolve close quarters and any other effects that may trigger)->q->d 

 

If the picture didn't help, I'll say the same thing in words. First a figure is defeated creating a defeated timing instance. Verena being adjacent to that figure uses combat momentum to gain and use up to 2 movement points. Now we are back to the defeated timing instance. If she is still adjacent she can activate close quarters. During the close quarters interrupt/timing instance she can use combat momentum to move one space before attacking. We then finish resolving close quarters and we go back to the defeated timing instance where other effects can possibly be triggered. 

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I actually got an official response from Fantasy Flight on this question recently.

 

Short Answer:

Outside of Verena's activation, she can make use of both Combat Momentum abilities prior to resolving the Close Quarters attack.

During her activation, she can spend the Strain for the 2 movement pts, but she cannot use them until after resolving the Close Quarters attack.

 

Longer Answer:

1. Only an Interrupt can "interrupt" another Interrupt.

2. Movement pts gained outside of a Hero's activation must be spent immediately as an Interrupt or they are lost.

3. Movement pts gained during a Hero's activation are added the their movement point pool and spending them is not an interrupt.

4. Everything happens in a timing sequence so once the adjacency requirement is met, Close Quarters is triggered. At this point, moving so Verena is no longer adjacent does not reverse the sequence and negate the trigger.

 

With regards to Close Quarters + Combat Momentum, if it isn't Verena's activation and she spends the strain to gain the two movement pts, the points must be spent--or lost--as an interrupt prior to resolving the Close Quarters attack. In this instance the movement points gain is an interrupt to the Close Quarters attack interrupt. If it is Verena's activation, then she can spend the strain to gain the 2 pts, but she must first resolve the Close Quarters interrupt attack prior to spending the pts.

 

Also, while not specific to this question, the second portion of Combat Momentum is "move up to 1 space" and not "gain and spend 1 movement point." Just something interesting to note as it means outside or during Verena's activation, she can use this to move into a difficult terrain square at no extra cost. And, outside of her activation, she could make use of both Combat Momentum abilities to 1. Move into a hostile occupied square at not extra cost PLUS 2. Move two additional squares past that figure.

 

Here is my question sent to Fantasy Flight and their official response regarding Combat Momentum + Close Quarters.

 

 

-------------------

My Question:

Imperial Assault - Return to Hoth Verena Talos (Hero) RE: Close Quarters + Combat Momentum Question: Can the Strain abilities from these two be used at the same time thus allowing Verena to Strain 3 to move three spaces and attack? It appears it could be interpreted this way but seems like it would make Combat Momentum really strong for a 1xp skill. Thanks!

 

Fantasy Flight Response:

It depends on the situation. Verena gains those movement points at the same time as Close Quarters is triggered, but during her activation she would not have the opportunity to spend them before triggering the attack of “Close Quarters.” However, if it’s triggered outside of her activation, she must spend the movement points immediately as an interrupt or they are lost, so she could then interrupt to spend them before performing the “Close Quarter” attack.

 

Thanks!

 

Paul Winchester

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

pwinchester@fantasyflightgames.com

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If she spent movement points, how can it still be the same point in time? Does she teleport with no time passed? :D

 

Maybe she does.

 

Can go either way.

 

When it is not her activation the movement points become an interrupt and create a new timing instance. During her activation she can't spend movement points while the figure is being defeated. Thematically this move would be something straight out of the matrix. Try to think of timing instances as timing windows and not just a single point in time. 

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Actually I will amend my previous post...

 

---------

Also, while not specific to this question, the second portion of Combat Momentum is "move up to 1 space" and not "gain and spend 1 movement point."

 

Just something interesting to note as it means outside or during Verena's activation, she can use this to move into a difficult terrain square at no extra cost.

---------

  • This would only be possible outside of her activation is she does not spend the extra strain to gain 2 pts. If she does, since the "move up to 1 space" augments Close Quarters, she would have to spend the 2 pts on the difficult terrain first.

 

---------

And, outside of her activation, she could make use of both Combat Momentum abilities to 1. Move into a hostile occupied square at not extra cost PLUS 2. Move two additional squares past that figure.

---------

  • I don't believe this is possible at all, because, as above, she would need to spend the 2 pts to move into the hostile occupied square prior to resolving the "move up to 1 space" for Close Quarters.
Edited by jabber

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Well, it does fit the out-of-activation thematics. She was minding her own business when the figure was defeated, propelling her, but still allowed her to grab the gun of the figure and use it to shoot another.

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The FFG response seems to make this even more powerful. The way I interpret their response is that you can trigger close quarters, move one space, then interrupt to gain 2 movement points, spend those points, then finish resolving the close quarters attack. 

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I would probably argue that it isn't "before Close Quarters" anymore if you spend movement points in there, at least during her activation it would the case, so maybe it is a byproduct of the out-of-activation timing.

 

-Pasi

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The FFG response seems to make this even more powerful. The way I interpret their response is that you can trigger close quarters, move one space, then interrupt to gain 2 movement points, spend those points, then finish resolving the close quarters attack.

Meaning you could move as many as three spaces before hitting some poor sod with your bonus attack, correct?

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I would probably argue that it isn't "before Close Quarters" anymore if you spend movement points in there, at least during her activation it would the case, so maybe it is a byproduct of the out-of-activation timing.

 

-Pasi

It doesn't say before close quarters, it's before the attack. 

 

The FFG response seems to make this even more powerful. The way I interpret their response is that you can trigger close quarters, move one space, then interrupt to gain 2 movement points, spend those points, then finish resolving the close quarters attack.

Meaning you could move as many as three spaces before hitting some poor sod with your bonus attack, correct?

 

Yes Sam, potentially 3 spaces depending on the terrain while using the two movement points. I really think this needs to be made clear in the FAQ.

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When Combat Momentum provides the movement/movement points, I'm assuming the defeated figure is still on the board.   One of my players wanted to move into the square occupied by the defeated figure so that she would be adjacent to the next figure she'd attack, in order to chain the events.

 

For the second portion:  You can move up to one space before performing the attack, means that the figure is still on the board, and you can't move into their square until Close Quarters is resolved.  I would also assume this means the figure also still blocks line of sight?

 

For the first portion, gain movement points, she could, after close quarters, move into the square, because then the figure is gone, using the movement points from this (except when it is outside of her activation), but the second figure would have been defeated before she moves adjacent, and so this wouldn't trigger another Close Quarters?

 

Am I correct in this?

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When a figure is defeated, it is removed from the map, that IS what being defeated is. Then things that triggers from being defeated can happen.

 

-- When any other figure is defeated, it is removed from the map along with any of its condition and damage tokens.

 

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But its an interrupt - I assumed it occured during the same instance.   So actually the defeated portion happens entirely, the figure is removed from the map, and then Verena performs her Close Quarters, and can move into the square previously occupied by the figure, and it doesn't affect line of sight anymore?

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The figure has not been defeated yet if it is still on the map.

 

The effect of being defeated is the figure being removed from the map (and possibly the deployment card returning to the IP's hand). It is an atomary operation. How could there be more granularity? When the figure is still in the air? :D

 

The only trigger before that is "when the figure has suffered damage equal to its health", which also triggers becoming defeated, and being defeated can trigger other abilities.

 

As far as I can see, there is no granularity for more timing instances.

 

Applies also to Vengeance, Forward Vengeance, Executor. The defeated figure has been removed before they happen.

 

Being defeated is before the attack resolves though, so they happen before Blast, Cleave, Conditions, and other after-the-attack-resolves abilities.

 

(All this according to my knowledge of the game.)

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Thank you!  I wasn't sure.  We were playing yesterday, and she moved into the square occupied by the hired gun she defeated and then attacked the next one, and I wasn't sure if moving into the square was allowed, but I did allow it at the time and say I'd check on the forums to make certain.  It looks like we played that correctly then.   I think I overthink the rules sometimes and see complexity when there isn't any.  :rolleyes:

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