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The Hand's Judgment

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The Hand's Judgment (THJ)

Interrupt: When the effects of an opponent's event would initiate, cancel those effects. X is that event's printed cost.


The rules are quite clear about canceling THJ canceling another THJ at zero cost.


But what about the following rule anomaly.



RR page 7

When a player plays an event card, its costs are
paid, its effects are resolved (or canceled), and the
card is placed in its owner's discard pile prior to
opening the reaction window which follows the
ability's resolution.


Looks to me like an event card is placed in its owner's discard pile between the resolving of the effects and the reaction window.


Is the following timing correct?


Player A plays some event card #1, pays cost, chooses targets

Triggering condition T1 becomes imminent: effects of #1 initiate

Interrupt window for T1 opens

Player B plays THJ #2, pays cost

Triggering condition T2 becomes imminent: effects of #2 initiate

Interrupt window for T2 opens

Player A plays THJ #3, pays 0 cost

Triggering condition T3 becomes imminent: effects of #3 initiate

Interrupt window for T3 opens

Interrupt window for T3 closes

Effects of #3 are resolved: #2 is canceled

#3 is placed in discard pile

Reaction window for T3 opens

Reaction window for T3 closes

Interrupt window for T2 closes instantly, because T2 is canceled

#2 is placed in discard pile

Interrupt window for T1 closes

Effects of #1 are resolved

#1 is placed in discard pile

Reaction window for T1 opens

Reaction window for T1 closes


If yes, what prevents player B from playing his THJ #2 in the interrupt window for T3?

The card is still in his hand, the 0 cost can be paid, it has the potential to change the game state, there is a new triggering condition.

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The card is not in the discard pile yet, but it's also no longer in hand.  So you can't play the same card twice.


So where is the card if not in your hand?

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I don't see how player B can cancel THJ #3 with THJ #2 in the above scenario.  THJ #2 is still in the process of canceling THJ #1, so I don't see how it's possible for it to be used to cancel THJ #3.

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Another excellent question, SWeini - I just wish you'd post them on cardgamedb instead, where I can curate the forums appropriately and use the answers as future references!


There are a couple of misconceptions here that are just completely contradicted by the RR. First, Timjimby, Event cards cannot enter play. Secondly, I'd clarify the OP's timing charts with the word "would initiate", as well as noting that when an event is cancelled successfully, it enters the discard pile immediately. It is still considered to have been played, but doesn't have to "wait" for a reaction window to close.


I've taken my time on this one, because there are actually two cases for why this is illegal within the RR (rather convoluted - one, for instance, had the fact that the event HJ1, when cancelling another event (acting as HJ3), then is immediately placed in the discard pile and therfore cannot cancel the initial treachery, as it cannot engage the game state from the discard pile - so the end result is identical regardless of whether Treachery or HJ2 was cancelled).


I wanted to check with Nate & Co and see if I was missing an easier explanation. I'll let you know when I hear back.

Edited by -Istaril

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When you go to trigger/announce your intention to play an event card, you have to reveal it so that all players can follow along with its initiation, check the play restrictions, etc. It doesn't actually leave your hand at this point, but it does go from a state of "hidden" to a state of "revealed." (This is similar to the way you have to reveal the character you intend to put into play with Arianne or Queen of Thorns; it doesn't leave your hand in Step 1, but you do have to reveal it so that all players can verify that it meets the play restrictions.)


Once a card is revealed, it stays revealed (in its original location) until it is moved to a new location or the ability is no longer resolving (see "Reveal" in the RRG). For events, this means it stays revealed, in your hand, until it is moved to the discard pile or until the event ability somehow resolves without leaving your hand (e.g., because you are somehow prevented from paying its cost).


All of that is in the RRG one way or the other. What isn't strictly in the rules, but has been confirmed with FFG, is that the act of revealing the event you intend to play is an integral, and required, aspect of playing an event card. (This is alluded to, though not specifically stated, in the "Event Cards" entry in the RRG, which defines events as "unexpected developments that might occur during the game.")


So you end up not being able to trigger the event card in your hand a second time in a series of nested abilities because you cannot reveal a card that is already revealed. To say that within the context of the original post, THJ #2 cannot be used in the Interrupt window for T3 (i.e., to cancel THJ #3) because even though it is still in your hand, it is in your hand revealed (from when you triggered it in the Interrupt window for T1). Since you cannot reveal the card you revealed in T1 a second time, you cannot meet the play restrictions necessary to trigger the same event a second time in T3.


As said above, while the RRG supports this interpretation, it is not specifically stated anywhere that revealing the event card while it is in your hand is part of satisfying the play restrictions to initiate an event. However, FFG has confirmed that this is, indeed, the way events are supposed to work and the clarification will be added to a future FAQ.


End result, you cannot use a single event card twice in the same series of nested abilities (such as THJ cancelling THJ).

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Otherwise, if 2 players each had a copy of The Hand's Judgment in hand, they'd be able to create an infinite loop which they would have no interest in breaking out of (since it would mean letting the other player have their way).

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I did see the infinite loop, too. Didn't mention it because it was clear to my that you simply can't play an event which is already triggered. Just wanted to know the corresponding rule.  :)

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I think it was one of those things where it's such a basic mechanism of card games that it didn't occur to anyone at FFG that they needed to include this in the timing or definitions in the rules.


But, in retrospect, they probably should have known better, After all, most games don't feel the need to define "draw" as taking the top card from the deck and putting it into hand, but FFG has learned from players coming in with the, "it doesn't say I can't" argument that they needed to for Second Edition.

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