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Lancezh

Why the Raider doesn't work (I + II) and won't.

222 posts in this topic

(Yeah i know, another one of these topics... For those who don't know me i own a toy store that focuses heavily on Armada, which includes a ton of demogames, competitive and normal games every week for what it's worth, next tourney in 2 weeks yay!)

 

I wrote this originally in another thread but it became so long that i felt the urge to receive a little bit more attention... If you want to hear a lot of positive things about the Raider you need to turn around now. This is coming from a broken heart, i was extremely hyped for this ship... but here goes. (Dont hate me clon, the last part is just for you ;))

 

 

Overall

 

The Raider lacks in both configurations just something all the time. With a lot of Skill you can get around many of its weaknesses but even at perfect maneuvering you will only get an average performance at best. After watching people use it in Tournaments and in Battle Reports i came to the conclusion that if their oponents would have been on par skillwise the raiders wouldn't have prevailed almost always.

 

It's very prone to just die in a fire due to a very unfortunate facts that come together and make this the weakest ship at the moment:

 

Brace is useless alone for defense

 

Brace only becomes viable against a lot of damage. A lot of damage unfortunately tends to come with a lot of dice and if there is one accuracy you're dead. No Electronic Countermeasures on that ship. No other Token to dance around the problem because it also lacks shield redirect, 6 damage into your face with one accuracy is not hard to do for a lot of ships in just one volley. No other ship depends on just one defense token in the way the Raider does for it's eventual survival.

 

Evade is a nice token, for a Long Range Ship. Or for Mon Mothma, since she hasn't joined the cause of the Imperials it's just a defense token for dodging some long range shots where the raider isn't dangerous at all.

 

You have some options with Motti, give them one HP more, and maybe with Montferrat (a unique Character) take one die out of the Equation. That's still to fragile and requires you to build in a very specific way that might not benefit your other ships. Or you could just take a gladiator.

 

 

Recover 2 Shields and suffer from poor navigation problems or die the next turn.

 

So your raider survived the first volley through some miracle and sits there with damage on his hull and open shields. You can chose now to use an engineer command to move shields (heavily underused by A LOT of people) and then suffer from the bad maneuverability because you lack a nav command from SPD 3+, 3 Clicks at Speed 4 without navigate is not really what i call turning.

 

 

They are not good Support Ships

 

They lack Support Teams and therefore fall flat for Projection Teams, Engine Techs (engine techs are probably why they didn't receive the upgrade) etc. They do work somewhat against Corvettes with Tractor Beams to stop them a little bit. But the problem there is that the Corvette can react to quickly to Tractorbeams by giving itself a Navigate Command immediately. Which, if it has engine techs itself (which i personally use as rebel a lot) means a minimum speed of 3 WORST case. You need at least 2 Raiders to catch one Corvette which kinda defeats point efficiency (while risking to die in the process to the kiting fire).

 

If you want to count an extra activation as a support thing then you might have found a use for them. Take the Raider - I, slap your admiral on it and fly it to the bahamas (thats 60-80points floating around useless for one activation). Rebels can do much more by just slapping projection experts on the admiral floater and still contribute potentially a lot to the fight while staying safe. It's the cheapest ship option to get an extra activation as imperial but i'm not convinced it's a good thing, it's just the least worst option we have and more something from the category "ah well, ok then...".

 

 

To expensive for reliable Carrier Ships

 

Sure you could slap expanded Hangars on them, good times! You just spent 60 points for a subpar carrier to command squadrons that you could also just replace with firesprays. The problem there is that firesprays are just too good not to take, and they don't need a carrier ship that eat's it's points away. A relatively barebones raider costs you 4 Firesprays in points, thats serious firepower you're giving up. Not an option.

 

 

Rhymerball / Firesprays

 

The rhymerball teaming up with Firesprays means instadeath with little to no retaliation due to the weak defense tokens against squadrons. Pointswise it's not the biggest danger but if you rely on a raider to do something (like overload pulsing before you do fire with the big hitters) you're putting a lot of eggs in an extremely weak basket.

 

Another problem... ships move before squadrons. Wether you have the intiative or not, there will be this one turn where a good player can wait with his bombers and the rogue commands will make sure that you will eat the damage before you can shoot anything or simply evade the admittedly evil anti squadron armament from Raiders. Also taking raiders means normally that you have either not a lot of firepower in ships or a weak lineup with squadrons. Points are already tight and Raiders eat them normally after the corefleet is done.

 

 

ISD's with Gunnery Teams / Target Saturation (Raider Spamming) / Brawling

 

That alone makes them fall flat completely against Imp lists (which in 80% of the cases consist of 1 or more ISD's). ISD's are so deadly with Gunnery teams that Raiders can chose to Survive in Long Range and not do anything or go medium Range and die almost guaranteed, circling an ISD is not possible without spending a lot of turns going around and you STILL run into the danger of getting downed by the side arks with bad luck. Nevermind that if an ISD doesnt want you to get behind him it won't let you. You would have to run around with Spd 4 within Long Range otherwise it takes to long and that makes it very very risky. Mess up by 1mm and get into medium range, 80pts gone. You would have to be lucky to NOT die.

Target saturation is a concept where you bring so many targets that the enemy cannot shoot everything at the same time. The Problem is if you bring 3 Raiders and say a gladiator right into the front ark with a massive assault you will lose almost guaranteed 2 Raiders to the gunnery Team, thats roughly 140-150 points lost to one round fire depending on your upgrades which is almost as much as a lightly upgraded ISD II !!!! And then you need to take down the ISD with the remaining Raider and Gladiator. Good luck with that, the Raider has accuracy but no damage, the gladiator has lots of dice but cant block the brace reliably. Best case is you rip the shields open and deal 3-4 damage to the hull. And that's a scenario where you only have to deal with one ship. Realistically you can lose 3-4 Raiders in one round if you aren't carefull.

 

Why am i comparing them to ISD's ? You will face this ship in 50% of the matches on tournaments, almost guaranteed and they can't deal with it.

 

 

Without initiative you will have a bad time

 

Initiative is an important thing for the Raider. If you absolutely need this ONE hit with it to chase something initiative is the only thing that will give it to you before you die in a fire. The problem is, it only works for one ship. My experience was this, if you have this one raider that needs the last move- first move initiative trick then you cannot use your demolisher gladiator because one of the 2 will catch hell when the turn starts. And if i have to decide between the 2 i go like almost everyone with the Demolisher. It can project damage better, more reliable and actually survive much more mistakes.

 

 

Aside from their "low" cost, they can't do anything better that the other ships could

 

One of their other bigger problems is that they rival the gladiators spot as already mentioned before and they dont do it well. Gladiator has better defense tokens, one insane ship title and most importantly support teams which makes navigating so much more forgiving. Yes a gladiator can navigate better than a raider and not just by a little:

 

A Raider with Navigate Command can click 4 times at Speed 4.

A Gladiator with Navigate can click 5 times while the last Speed 1 Move at the end is perfect to let it align both fire arcs to the target.

 

Yes the Gladiator also costs more for that. But not THAT much. 2 Raiders are harder to keep alive than 1 Gladiator and they cost more.

 

 

It has a lot of Black Dice for it's point cost

On the cards yeah, i just never see them happen on the Battlefield reliably.

 

 

They work awesome with riekaan!

Ah wait...

 

Yeah but corvettes have the same problems dude whats your point

 

No they dont:

 

- They can fire with ackbar (which is very prominent atm) at long range very reliably and with the turbolaser reroutes they deal guaranteed damage. At this range 3 of their tokens remain effective. They can defend where they work best. This is huge.

 

- They can fit electronic countermeasures. Unless your enemy has XI-7's and even then, you're already 1 hp tankier from the get go. It also means that this shield redirect saves you against squadrons or other long range shots that try to finish you off while you stay with 3 damage on the hull around. The Raider is dead in this case. Nothing will save him even if he has full shields around the open zone.

 

- They can actually support with projection experts or with their ship titles. Tantive IV / Jainas LIght are extremely good and work well with a lot of scenarios.

 

- They can flank ISD's with engine Techs. They got the speed and while they circle it they can deal reliable damage to anything they circle. Engine Techs are sometimes the one bit that lets you adjust the final range so you dont end up in medium range as well.

 

- Corvettes almost always can chose the engagement. This is why against a good player you will have the problem that this pesky corvette is flying away with 2 damage on the hull to safety and there's not much you can do about it. That's the perk of being the fastest, most maneuverable ship on the field.

 

 

 

So what do you use them for ?

 

Honestly not a lot. I try to love them so hard, i love the model i love the concept (i even have 3 of them) but it just doesn't work in a strong current meta. Play them in fluff games for fun, sure.

Competitively, i'm still not convinced that they are viable. If you are wrecking your competition with it, chances are you could do it even better with other ships because you sir, are a badass (or your competition not so much).

Maybe for getting this extra activation and for separating the Admiral from a key ship. Maybe.

What i'm unsure yet is how big of a role they play in deployment, an additional Ship not only gives you an extra activation it also means that you can win the deployment game with nasty tricks. (Usually works against unexperienced players)

 

 

Ok we get it you're a grumpy dude, the raider isn't broken there's a dude here on the forums who plays it well competitive

 

I deny his existence! I still wish for FFG coming out and saying something like "OOPSIE, there was a printing error on the raider. it actually lacks a support team upgrade icon, sorry guys!"

 

But hey... i can dream can i.

Edited by Lancezh

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Man, ClonTroper5 must be twitching something fierce right now.

 

I know =) He knows exactly that i was adressing him here :P The problem is, he's an extremely competent player from what i saw and that doesnt make the Raider good (as in the best option available). If he could clone himself and play himself with a non raider list he'd lose 80% i'm sure of it.

The other option is that i'm an incompetent ****. Given the amount of games i have and the profession i chose this would be very unfortunate.  :ph34r:

Edited by Lancezh
WGNF911 likes this

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Man, ClonTroper5 must be twitching something fierce right now.

I'm just gonna let him do that talking. He's terrifying with that fleet.

 

 

As i said, he'd be even more terrifying with another list. I'm missing the people's post who pick up his list and playing it as well as he does.

Norsehound likes this

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Man, ClonTroper5 must be twitching something fierce right now.

I'm just gonna let him do that talking. He's terrifying with that fleet.

 

As i said, he'd be even more terrifying with another list. I'm missing the people's post who pick up his list and playing it as well as he does.

I've played him plenty with other lists. He's good for sure, but he's beatable. I'm terrified of that list. He found a way to make the Raider work incredibly well. If he beats JJ this week, who has beaten Clon plenty of times, I think that will say a lot.

clontroper5 likes this

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Oh god, is there a TL;DR version?

 

Sure Mate, at your service:

 

TlDr;

 

- Raider Sucks.

- Corvette Owns.

- Clontrooper will disagree.

- I can't make them work aside from nasty deployment tricks.

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Man, ClonTroper5 must be twitching something fierce right now.

I'm just gonna let him do that talking. He's terrifying with that fleet.

 

As i said, he'd be even more terrifying with another list. I'm missing the people's post who pick up his list and playing it as well as he does.

I've played him plenty with other lists. He's good for sure, but he's beatable. I'm terrified of that list. He found a way to make the Raider work incredibly well. If he beats JJ this week, who has beaten Clon plenty of times, I think that will say a lot.

 

 

I hope i'm not leaving the wrong impression here. I WANT you to be right. This is just a summary of our current Meta maybe not necessarly yours. If i can make them work i'm gonna use them for a long time. I didn't have much luck with his list (yet) and neither with the ones that i built (roughly 10 games). 

Edited by Lancezh

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We've got a player in our meta who's tried all sorts of things trying to get the Raider to work and has come to the same conclusions as you: Raiders can't reliably survive to the range where they do their best work.  I love zippy, flanky things but I think that it's a lot harder to fly those now, especially with Ackbar & co flying around.

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Where are you coming up with roughly 70 points per Raider? It sounds like you're over-upgrading them pretty severely (unless you play a list like clontrooper does where it's all small ships and they need to get work done). I find they work best at low 50s at the highest, preferably below 50 points each.

 

Also I find argument strength suffers from abundant spelling errors. It makes people take you less seriously.
alot = a lot

alittle = a little

to = too (as in, there are too many uses of "to" instead of "too")

's = s (pluralizing)

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Where are you coming up with roughly 70 points per Raider? It sounds like you're over-upgrading them pretty severely (unless you play a list like clontrooper does where it's all small ships and they need to get work done). I find they work best at low 50s at the highest, preferably below 50 points each.

 

Also I find argument strength suffers from abundant spelling errors. It makes people take you less seriously.

alot = a lot

alittle = a little

to = too (as in, there are too many uses of "to" instead of "too")

's = s (pluralizing)

 

I'm sorry, english is not my first language, i write to the best of my abilities.  :(

 

Edit: Corrected some of the mistakes i could find.

Edited by Lancezh

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While some of the points here are well stated and valid let's remember it is a 44/48 pt ship. Its supposed to be tough to keep alive. I have found two ways in which the Raider is effective. First, since the conga line (or variations thereof) is popular right now I like to use it to "chase the tail". This requires some patience and skill at maneuvering to avoid side arcs. It's job is either to chew through or harass into making a mistake the ship at the end of the line. The second is less tested. I like to use it in place of fighters. I need a few more games vs Ryhmer balls or Rebel fighter heavy lists but essentially it's two Raider I's with titles and OE accompanied by IG-2000 (his role is to take out lynchpins in synergy heavy fighter groups) and two TIE Advanced (their role is to soak up damage intended for Raiders or IG, I expect them to die and die well). With OE it's 2 damage almost all the time. Even with only a single arc that 4 damage per enemy squadron in a single turn (not counting my squads and the Raider title single shot). The challenge is keeping opponents from melting them down while they are engaged with fighters. In some ways this plays into my overall strategy because a shot at a Raider is one not directed at one of my designated face melters. I just need a few more games to know if it's viable.

Mundo, WGNF911 and clontroper5 like this

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Every time I've played a list with raiders one of two things happen...

1) They try and close.. This leads to them being removed from the game before they get a shot off.

2) They try to flank and never get a chance to engage.

I have played 8 games against lists with one or two raiders and I've never had any of my ships fired apon by a raider. Just fighters.

thecactusman17 and Norsehound like this

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You're flying it wrong, my man.  You're argument is basically that it's not a CR90 or a GSD.  Well, it's not, and flying it like one of those ships will only end in misery and defeat.

 

The RDR is a support ship.  Your argument is that it can't be a support ship because it doesn't have a Support Team slot, but that's not what really determines its role.  In fact, other than Projection Experts, none of the other Support Team cards affect other ships, so it's a misrepresentation to think that a ship needs that slot to be effective in a supporting role.  

 

The RDR is an anti-squadron support ship.  It's entirely purpose-built to deal with squadrons effectively.  Anything else it can do is secondary.  It supports bigger ships by fending off squadrons, and it's incredibly effective at it.

clontroper5, Mundo, WGNF911 and 4 others like this

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You're flying it wrong, my man.  You're argument is basically that it's not a CR90 or a GSD.  Well, it's not, and flying it like one of those ships will only end in misery and defeat.

 

The RDR is a support ship.  Your argument is that it can't be a support ship because it doesn't have a Support Team slot, but that's not what really determines its role.  In fact, other than Projection Experts, none of the other Support Team cards affect other ships, so it's a misrepresentation to think that a ship needs that slot to be effective in a supporting role.  

 

The RDR is an anti-squadron support ship.  It's entirely purpose-built to deal with squadrons effectively.  Anything else it can do is secondary.  It supports bigger ships by fending off squadrons, and it's incredibly effective at it.

 

So if a list doesn't have squadrons those points are for nothing ? The strongest lists in terms of wins are double ISD lists at the moment in our area. And they have low'ish squadron support if any (50-80 points i'd wager). Also if that's true they solve a problem i normally don't have.

Edited by Lancezh

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Ok we get it you're a grumpy dude, the raider isn't broken there's a dude here on the forums who plays it well competitive

I deny his existence! I still wish for FFG coming out and saying something like "OOPSIE, there was a printing error on the raider. it actually lacks a support team upgrade icon, sorry guys!"

But hey... i can dream can i.

Also my existence Is undeniable!

And I think it is hilarious I am the the main argument against "the Raider sucks" threads

Edited by clontroper5

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Ok we get it you're a grumpy dude, the raider isn't broken there's a dude here on the forums who plays it well competitive

I deny his existence! I still wish for FFG coming out and saying something like "OOPSIE, there was a printing error on the raider. it actually lacks a support team upgrade icon, sorry guys!"

But hey... i can dream can i.

Also my existence Is undeniable!

And I think it is hilarious I am the the main argument against "the Raider sucks" threads

 

 

It's your own fault that you won with them, don't try to blame this on us!

clontroper5 likes this

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Has anyone tried running them as a Destroyer Escort? If so, how did that go?

 

I usually run two to support the ISDII and Fireball. They aren't the lynchpin ships the ISD and Stogie can be, but at the same time, they can be made into all-purpose harassment. Why does everyone treat them like they're suicide ships? They *can* be, but it's not a requirement.

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My thoughts:

  1. I have definitely seen the Raider used effectively - the one I encounter the most is a single Raider that hangs out as the adult supervision for a Rhymer Ball. It uses Raider I + Ordnance Experts and nothing else. 48 points of stop punching my bombers, essentially. (The ball itself is Rhymer, 2x TIE Advanced, Dengar, and then either TIE Bombers, Firesprays, or both, so the added ~2 damage per shot from the Raider against anything that engages it is quite helpful)
  2. IF you are going to use the raider in size, it's very important that you have:
    1. Activation advantage
    2. Overwhelming firepower
    3. Overwhelming speed

What the raider is good at is going from far to very close, then shooting rapidly and in overwhelming amounts. This is where Clontroper's list is good; he understands that to use the raider well as a mainstay, you need a LOT of them, but they also have to do actual work. To some extent, it is like the CR90A: you either want one or two with very specific roles, or a ton of them. A middle amount is not good.

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Where are you coming up with roughly 70 points per Raider? It sounds like you're over-upgrading them pretty severely (unless you play a list like clontrooper does where it's all small ships and they need to get work done). I find they work best at low 50s at the highest, preferably below 50 points each.

 

Also I find argument strength suffers from abundant spelling errors. It makes people take you less seriously.

alot = a lot

alittle = a little

to = too (as in, there are too many uses of "to" instead of "too")

's = s (pluralizing)

 

I'm sorry, english is not my first language, i write to the best of my abilities.  :(

 

Edit: Corrected some of the mistakes i could find.

Hey, knowing it's not your first language improves the outlook. It's a lot to write in a secondary language. I assumed you were a native speaker and didn't see any evidence to the contrary. My bad.

Also, I'm still curious how much you're upgrading your Raiders. It seems like way too much. Keep them cheap is how I try to do it.

 

Every time I've played a list with raiders one of two things happen...

1) They try and close.. This leads to them being removed from the game before they get a shot off.

2) They try to flank and never get a chance to engage.

I have played 8 games against lists with one or two raiders and I've never had any of my ships fired apon by a raider. Just fighters.

I see a fair number of people fielding Raiders just kind of diving in and getting poofed. Why are you having trouble with flanking? I find it's not too bad getting into the back arc come turn 4 or so, provided you've got the big ships out front to keep the other guy's attention.

I find identifying if you need the Raider for flak or for harassment before deployment is very important. You run them differently depending on their primary duty.

WGNF911 and Formynder4 like this

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I understand these arguments and i even admit that it's good against squadrons but the problem is, you are at a serious disadvantage against lists without squadrons which are perfectly viable. Its like the Tie interceptor, great squadron on paper but if there's nothing to fight it's alot of wasted points. Dice against ships for instance are never wasted, that's why the firespray excels, it has enough to fend of other squadrons and if there are none you can project the damage onto ships. Firesprays do reach ISD's AND they can dish damage out. Raiders can't, that was the point i was trying to make.

 

Also keep in mind in a tournament setting it's about with how much difference you actually win in terms of points, not just wether you do win. Having extremely fragile ships that dont help you achieve an overwhelming victory but risk you losing 50-80 (depending on upgrades).

WGNF911 and Norsehound like this

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