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Alekzanter

Mama, Just Killed A Man

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umm everyone keeps calling the player psychotic and the character psychotic but we dont know the pcs reasoning for the action or the in character thought process i mena the place was described as no one id visibly armed that implys their might be non visibly armed individuals  secondly the npc is clearly a raciest in character its not hard to jump to the conclusion that this potentially drunk racist could become violent and may have a hold out blaster on him. the player might be thinking i better take him out before he pulls a wild bill on me and shoots me in the back. or thay may be thinking that this is part of the gms plan and that theirs suppose to be a conflict i mean look at this from the players point that really seems like its a set up for an encounter or that its meant to be an environmental conflict meant to cause problems for the character. i could go on furtehr but that the basic point its not hard to see the pc having a reasonable though process on why the npc needed to be shot that docent necessarily mean their psychotic or murder hobos

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Honestly, at this point it would be interesting to hear from the player as to what, exactly, was going through his head at the time. But those are some pretty convoluted assumptions above, not supported at all by what we've heard from the GM. They don't paint the character in a very good light; one might as well be calling the PC "delusionally paranoid" (or perhaps, to be more generous, "a couple kloo horns short of a full jizz band") and have done with it.

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Honestly, if I was in a bar and saw someone call a heavily-armed black man an N-word to his face, I'd expect him to get shot, too. And I'm not sure a whole lot of people would be too upset about it, either.

This is what I'm hearing: "It's okay/appropriate for someone to respond to an insult by putting a bullet in the guy."

And I can't even.

Edited by awayputurwpn

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This is what I'm hearing: "It's okay/appropriate for someone to respond to an insult by putting a bullet in the guy."

I’m sure there are places in this world where that is true.

However, I am equally certain that I’ve never been in any such places, and I don’t know where any such places exist. I might have some ideas of where such places could potentially be found, but rest assured that I stay very far away from them — if at all possible.

Moreover, I am also reasonably certain that by the GM’s description of the event, that the bar in which this event occurred in was NOT one of those types of places. So, the guy died, and people noticed.

This ain’t Mos Eisley.

Edited by bradknowles

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Wow, what a huge thread!!! I didn't read most of it, just like the first page... But just wanted to share a quick story that I think is cool. 

 

So my game is a 1970's/80's New York Mob theme style set on Nar Shaddaa. Also think of 007 Live and Let Die. I throw in a lot of fun stereotypes of the era, and we all do the cheap Jersey accent! LOL. 

So anyway, I had one of my PC's just leaving a holo-pool hall from a night of hustling, did a quick roll to see how much money he made, and he made about 250 bucks! Score! I had him give me a Perception check, but he didn't do very good. he was preoccupied with counting his money, and did't see some street "hoodlums" nearing him. After a little '70's bad movies banter, a fight ensues. He punches one, then he pulls out his little billy club, night stick thing, and proceeds to pretty much whoop some ass on this little group of minions. I did have each one get their own initiative slot though. After a few got beat into unconsciousness they rest took off quickly throwing off some good old fashioned 70's hood slang as they ran! LOL. Of course they were wearing bell bottoms too! The Player felt pretty good that I was willing to show him that I felt his PC was tough and important to give him a quick scene that set the tone of the character. We both both spent the Advantages and Threats in neat ways to push the narrative of the encounter. I also felt it way a great moment that the Player didn't want to resort to deadly force for just an attempted mugging. All they had were small switch blade knives, no guns, so if I would have used guns, he would have been more inclined to use them. All in all, a great little encounter to get the player used to his character sheet, and into the world. I have anther idea where he will run into this little street "gang" again. But now that he is a "made man", they won't try to mug him, and they will remember the ass beating he gave the group before, and while they might not like him much, will show him the respect due. I want to work it so he will go to them and recruit for his own needs and affairs. We will see. 

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And see - that's a movie/genre/setting where gunning a man down without blinking an eye is appropriate and expected. Shaft will absolutely kill any mutherfu(shut your mouth) who crosses him. And then bed every woman he encounters. That's just how the genre rolls.

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In a lawless town/starport like those pictured in the old Clint Eastwood-Westerns from italy (for a handfull of dollars, for a few dollars more...) or "last man standing" with Bruce Willis it would be completely normal to act like that. As long as you don't mess with the thugs of the local hutt or black sun vigo there would be no real consequences. If there are two or more centers of power it would be even possible to use them against each other like in the mentioned movies, but that would become a game of chances if the GM is not planning a plot like that and therefore helping the players.

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Honestly, at this point it would be interesting to hear from the player as to what, exactly, was going through his head at the time. But those are some pretty convoluted assumptions above, not supported at all by what we've heard from the GM. They don't paint the character in a very good light; one might as well be calling the PC "delusionally paranoid" (or perhaps, to be more generous, "a couple kloo horns short of a full jizz band") and have done with it.

 

Is it wrong that my first thought was "Well, we know what was going through his victim's head, a blaster bolt."  I all seriousness the player probably was caught up in the escapist fantasy and didn't consider the consequences for his character. We have a guy like that in our group and sometimes have to pause the action and discuss the scene and our objectives to kind of reinforce that chucking grenades at security guards at the crowded entrance to a facility we'd like to bluff our way into is not the optimal way to deal with them.

 

Sometimes Murderhobos just gotta murderhobo though.

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So funny story. My character (yes, that one) once got a little to 'lucky' at Sabacc. While sitting at a mob table because life apparently just isn't worth living if you aren't doing something stupid.

When, after collecting his winnings, he got jumped by some goons looking to tune up his face and lighten his pockets?

He didn't escalate things past a brawl till one pulled a vibroknife. Because bodies cause problems. And this is coming from a character that has a kill tally just short of the DS II.

Never leave a body unless it's work related and you're getting paid.

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Honestly, if I was in a bar and saw someone call a heavily-armed black man an N-word to his face, I'd expect him to get shot, too. And I'm not sure a whole lot of people would be too upset about it, either.

This is what I'm hearing: "It's okay/appropriate for someone to respond to an insult by putting a bullet in the guy."

And I can't even.

 

There might be a disconnect here. I don't think it's about what's ok - I can't imagine anyone thinking that it's ok for a heavily armed black man to shoot someone in the face in response to a racial slur. It might, however, be expected. If you reach for your waistband while cops are trying to arrest you, it might be fair to expect to be shot, too. Not right, not ok, but it is certainly predictable.

 

 

As an aside, it occurred to me -  how lethal are blaster bolts, really? I'm trying to think through the three movies, and when you see blaster bolt aftermath it's almost more likely to be survived. We don't know about stormtrooper aftermath - other than that one bloody-hand guy in VII, who knows how many survived or died? Leia survived, Luke survived (although that was a shot to his fake hand; actually, it didn't even break the hand, did it?), Kylo Ren survived (a shot to the torso from a bowcaster, no less), Vader survived (though force powers probably mitigated that shot), R2D2 got shot (repairing dead droids is kinda arguable, but it didn't break him, just overloaded him). 

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Honestly, if I was in a bar and saw someone call a heavily-armed black man an N-word to his face, I'd expect him to get shot, too. And I'm not sure a whole lot of people would be too upset about it, either.

This is what I'm hearing: "It's okay/appropriate for someone to respond to an insult by putting a bullet in the guy."

And I can't even.

 

There might be a disconnect here. I don't think it's about what's ok - I can't imagine anyone thinking that it's ok for a heavily armed black man to shoot someone in the face in response to a racial slur. It might, however, be expected. If you reach for your waistband while cops are trying to arrest you, it might be fair to expect to be shot, too. Not right, not ok, but it is certainly predictable.

 

 

As an aside, it occurred to me -  how lethal are blaster bolts, really? I'm trying to think through the three movies, and when you see blaster bolt aftermath it's almost more likely to be survived. We don't know about stormtrooper aftermath - other than that one bloody-hand guy in VII, who knows how many survived or died? Leia survived, Luke survived (although that was a shot to his fake hand; actually, it didn't even break the hand, did it?), Kylo Ren survived (a shot to the torso from a bowcaster, no less), Vader survived (though force powers probably mitigated that shot), R2D2 got shot (repairing dead droids is kinda arguable, but it didn't break him, just overloaded him). 

 

 

The lethality of blaster bolts as shown in the movies and two animated series is measured in highly scientific "plot contrivance units".

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There might be a disconnect here. I don't think it's about what's ok - I can't imagine anyone thinking that it's ok for a heavily armed black man to shoot someone in the face in response to a racial slur. It might, however, be expected. If you reach for your waistband while cops are trying to arrest you, it might be fair to expect to be shot, too. Not right, not ok, but it is certainly predictable.

 

 

As an aside, it occurred to me -  how lethal are blaster bolts, really? I'm trying to think through the three movies, and when you see blaster bolt aftermath it's almost more likely to be survived. We don't know about stormtrooper aftermath - other than that one bloody-hand guy in VII, who knows how many survived or died? Leia survived, Luke survived (although that was a shot to his fake hand; actually, it didn't even break the hand, did it?), Kylo Ren survived (a shot to the torso from a bowcaster, no less), Vader survived (though force powers probably mitigated that shot), R2D2 got shot (repairing dead droids is kinda arguable, but it didn't break him, just overloaded him). 

 

 

The average Blaster Pistol has a damage range from 4 for a small holdout blaster to 10 for a disruptor pistol (which is technically a overpowerd blaster). There are certain stronger pistols with damage ratings around 6 to 8 for the top of the line models. As i dont know the skill of the character and the blaster pistol used, i assume that he would have a pool of YGG and a mid range pistol with a damage of 6. If the mentioned NPC is treated as a minion a one-shot-kill is very likely to occure if the player scores a hit. If the player is a rival with the typical profile mentioned in the core rulebook the NPC would be serious wounded in most cases but it would need two shots to take him out. On the other hand if a weak holdout blaster is used it is more than possible for even a minion to survive the shot. If the character is a skilled gunman the odds are shifted to kill and if the player wants to make a point it would be a good idea to say so - for example i try to shoot his shoulder, leg, arm etc. which would be a called shot using a aim manouver - if the game master decides to let the player roll - which would be the preferred way for me as is a chance to miss which would affect the Gunman-Credibility of the mentioned player to a good degree... The GM could even use a force point to upgrade the shot and use a despair for interesting complications such as shooting the minion of a local crime lord. If the GM decides to storytell the outcome of the event wihout a roll it would be fair to come to a player-friendly conclusion.

Edited by Komrk

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Honestly, if I was in a bar and saw someone call a heavily-armed black man an N-word to his face, I'd expect him to get shot, too. And I'm not sure a whole lot of people would be too upset about it, either.

This is what I'm hearing: "It's okay/appropriate for someone to respond to an insult by putting a bullet in the guy."

And I can't even.

 

 

Then get your eyes checked, because I never said that.

 

It's not justified, by any stretch of the imagination.  But it's not surprising or unexpected, either.  It's certainly not unprovoked.  There a reason that the only thing that trumps free speech is hate speech.

 

Throw in the fact that the player's intent was not to kill, and it looks like a pretty clear case of GM overreaction to an in-character overraction.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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It's not justified, by any stretch of the imagination.  But it's not surprising or unexpected, either.  It's certainly not unprovoked.  There a reason that the only thing that trumps free speech is hate speech.

 

Throw in the fact that the player's intent was not to kill, and it looks like a pretty clear case of GM overreaction to an in-character overraction.

I don’t care what bar you are in, on this planet or any other, if you pull out a gun and shoot someone with it, and it wasn’t your intent to kill them, then you’re either very stupid, or you’re very careless. Or maybe you’re just that much of a badass that you can murder anyone you like at any time and no one will ever call you on it.

But if it is your intent to pull out your gun and shoot someone but explicitly avoid killing them, then you’re going to want to take some care in how you go about that process.

And if you do pull out your gun and shoot them, then you should not be at all surprised if they wind up dying — either from the physical damage done by the gunshot wound, the mental shock of being shot, the concept that someone in a nice little bar where no shootings have ever occurred is the place where they’re going to die, or whatever.

I don’t see how anyone can reasonably assume that the GM should be able to read the mind of the player when the PC pulls out a gun and shoots someone over a simple racial/species slur.

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I think the OP may have gotten a little bit testy over this one, but thats probably just me misunderstanding at 11:40 pm.

In situations like this, when the PC's have done something a bit excessive, it can be the GM's time to really twist the knife.  As an example:  My brother was playing in a Fantasy Game campaign, and the group had been tasked with going to some town and springing a prisoner from the local jail.  The group arrives and sees that the town is having some fair or festival...lots of people in town, vendors, perfect crowds to get lost in once the caper is done.  As the players enter the town, they mingle...shop a bit...one of the PC's buys a flower from a little girl selling bunches of wildflowers.  The group arrives at the jail, sees that only the town marshal is on shift, and decide to hit the door like titans.  They blow in, kill the marshal, and just as they take his keys, the little girl selling flowers wanders in, sees the body, and wails "DAAAAADDDYYY!!!!"  My brother said that everyone felt like utter slime for the rest of the night.

That is the role, in a sense, of a good GM.  Let the players do what they want...but when they do something 'dumb', or 'boneheaded', remind them that what they do or say or pull a blaster on, might come back to bite them, later.

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Apologies if this has already been said, 11 pages is a lot to scan through.

 

There are two kinds of bars in my game. The first is the kind where you leave your weapons in some kind of coat check, think the rotating set of compartments for weapons in the bar we see at the beginning of Serenity.  In fact I've even used that exact set-up.  The second type are the kinds where you keep your weapons, and the bar owner has hired very large bouncers with no senses of humor.  I use the first when I want a bar room brawl to occur.  In the case of the second if a brawl erupts because the PCs do something stupid (Fishboy, I'm talking about you) if someone pulls a gun I have a table fall on them and a large trandoshan get knocked out and fall on top of the table.  Unless I want a body count for the game to progress.  Then I let anything go, but that of course means the other patrons pull guns and vibroknives too....

 

Edited to add the following.....

 

BTW, very cool title for the thread.  I love a good Queen lyric reference, there are so many that work for gaming.

 

Lightbulb....

 

Idea for a topic!  Time to post. 

Edited by MrMxyzptlk

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