Suggestion - Paper lists should be mandatory for official events

[DailyRich 3,346]

 

I know at least some people will build a list when they get there. Not because they can scout out what people are playing but because they just like building lists on the fly. Or perhaps some thought occurred to them on the way to the store and they want to try it out.

 

Most of the bigger events I've been to have been so crowded, it would be terribly impractical -- and borderline rude -- for everyone to bring everything they owned and build their squads there at the store.  I always just bring what I plan on flying that day, with some replacement parts just in case (mostly extra pegs and bases).  I can fit everything in a backpack and not need half a table for two tackle boxes and my card binders.

Edited February 9, 2016 by DailyRich

[VanorDM 11,599]

it would be terribly impractical

It's not even remotely impractical. I can fit everything I own in a single bag that takes up maybe 2 foot of floor space. That's hardly taking up a ton of space. Not that I'd leave it sitting there once I have my list built... I'd go lock it in my trunk or something

Besides it doesn't matter if it's practical or not, some people like to do it that way, and there is simply no good reason why they shouldn't be able to.

No one has provided a single thing that is even remotely a good reason why people should be required to bring a preprinted list. But I will again point out how the rules say nothing about it, and the events run by FFG itself does not require it.

Edited February 9, 2016 by VanorDM

[DailyRich 3,346]

Well, I think courtesy is a good reason, but to each his own.  Two feet of floor space times forty or fifty people can add up really quick.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Well, I think courtesy is a good reason, but to each his own.

I don't think making your list at the event is rude in the first place. Besides there's nothing inherently courtious about bringing a preprinted list. It's not like I need to print something to have my list built prior to showing up.

 

Two feet of floor space times forty or fifty people can add up really quick.

Two feet of floor space that can go under a table, or as I said back in my car after I'm done making the list. Or isn't even there, as I said just because I don't print something out means I bring my whole collection.

So again, not a single valid reason why I should have to print my list out ahead of time.

Edited February 9, 2016 by VanorDM

[DailyRich 3,346]

Oh I see, I messed up quoting your post above.  This is what I meant to quote and was replying to:

 

"I know at least some people will build a list when they get there. Not because they can scout out what people are playing but because they just like building lists on the fly. Or perhaps some thought occurred to them on the way to the store and they want to try it out."

 

It was about people bringing and building at the event, nothing to do with printing a list.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I have no issue with giving the TO my list but nothing in the OP's post actually is a valid reason why I should be required to bring a preprinted list.

All my cards on the table and that should answer every question the other person has. A list I had the other guy is quite frankly a bit of a waste of time. It's not like you are going to really get information from that you won't just as easily get from my cards.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It was about people bringing and building at the event, nothing to do with printing a list.

Even then... I think that's a less than ideal way to play. I wouldn't want to have the first test of a list be in a tournament. But some people like to do it that way for some reason or another.

As long as they aren't taking up a bunch of space what harm is there in it? Now I'll agree that if they have their books open and models scattered all over the place while other people are trying to get set up. Then you have an issue.

But give me enough room for a 3 ring binder and I can build a list quite quickly and easily. Then I can put everything away and put it back in my car or something and take up no extra space.

Again I wouldn't actually want to do it that way myself.

Edit: I don't know why I'm getting riled up over this, but the idea that I'd be required to bring two printed copies just rubs me the wrong way.

If you want to do that, great, but if I had a TO turn me away for not having one, when the rules don't require it, that would really set me off.

Edited February 9, 2016 by VanorDM

[DailyRich 3,346]

Oh, I don't mean bring a list you've never played before.  It's just been my experience that most stores don't have that much space, and a lot of them have other things going on the same day as the X-Wing tournament.  If I can do something to make a little less of a footprint, I feel like it's just a nice thing to do.  Besides, it beats lugging all my stuff down to my car and into the store.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Personally, I think that there's a compromise to the "Paper lists should be required" crowd, and the "Build a list on the fly" crowd, that still prevents the "I'm gonna build an anti-meta list after seeing what everyone is flying" guy from doing his thing:

1. Sequester the "Build on the fly" group apart from the "Prebuilt" group until they're ready
2. Have a printer available once they've completed their lists
3. Have the printed list be a part of registration, so you can have a universal look-up out of match, while the individuals in the match still have the pieces of paper
4. ???
5. Profit!

[DailyRich 3,346]

Just give out roster sheets and pens/pencils.

[Grayfax 991]

Wouldn't it be better to have the printed lists with the QR code for TOs?  I really don't know as I've never been in that role, but I would assume not having pencil and paper and having to enter all the lists by hand would be a really good thing (not to mention trying to read handwriting from a population that doesn't write much by hand anymore).  Or is that only a valid concern if they are using Cryodex?  As they probably aren't keeping the paper, if you have it and someone wants to see it, I don't mind sharing that way, but I'm not fully invested in having to provide one for potentially each player at a tournament.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Wouldn't it be better to have the printed lists with the QR code for TOs?  I really don't know as I've never been in that role, but I would assume not having pencil and paper and having to enter all the lists by hand would be a really good thing (not to mention trying to read handwriting from a population that doesn't write much by hand anymore).  Or is that only a valid concern if they are using Cryodex?  As they probably aren't keeping the paper, if you have it and someone wants to see it, I don't mind sharing that way, but I'm not fully invested in having to provide one for potentially each player at a tournament.

I'd have them use actual squad-builders, and use print-outs from the squad-builders. It keeps things legal with decent builders, and presents them legibly and concisely.

[Grayfax 991]

Sorry, I implied Squad / List Builders and toggling the QR code option, but I didn't state that explicitly.  Yes, it makes it readable, is consistent in layout and is very concise.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

It was about people bringing and building at the event, nothing to do with printing a list.

Even then... I think that's a less than ideal way to play. I wouldn't want to have the first test of a list be in a tournament. But some people like to do it that way for some reason or another.

As long as they aren't taking up a bunch of space what harm is there in it? Now I'll agree that if they have their books open and models scattered all over the place while other people are trying to get set up. Then you have an issue.

But give me enough room for a 3 ring binder and I can build a list quite quickly and easily. Then I can put everything away and put it back in my car or something and take up no extra space.

Again I wouldn't actually want to do it that way myself.

Edit: I don't know why I'm getting riled up over this, but the idea that I'd be required to bring two printed copies just rubs me the wrong way.

If you want to do that, great, but if I had a TO turn me away for not having one, when the rules don't require it, that would really set me off.

My biggest issue is someone not showing up prepared 5 minutes before the event starts and then trying to figure out a list and not being ready at the start time.

[VanorDM 11,599]

My biggest issue is someone not showing up prepared 5 minutes before the event starts and then trying to figure out a list and not being ready at the start time.

If they're not ready when the event starts they either play with what they have, so perhaps a 50 point list, or they forfeit the first game.

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

 

My biggest issue is someone not showing up prepared 5 minutes before the event starts and then trying to figure out a list and not being ready at the start time.

If they're not ready when the event starts they either play with what they have, so perhaps a 50 point list, or they forfeit the first game.

 

 

 

As a TO I loath setting event start times because there is always one, if not a handful, of people that thinks "Round 1 starts promptly at 11am" means: show up at 11am, open your squad builder, try to come up with a build, and submit the final squad list sometime before noon. To my own faults I allow this to happen by not wanting to tell people they're just out of luck and will have to try again next tournament or indicate they must forfeit their first match (as this is entirely unfair to a player who is ready-to-go, wants to play, and now has an essential super-bye for Round 1).

 

Therefore pre-built squad lists submitted (on tree-flesh or digitally) before the event start would be a wondrous requirement and make it a lot easier on the TO when it comes to starting on-time. I am trying this methodology of pre-submitted lists in the near future when we host an Epic tournament (I am not checking 300point squad lists for legality on the day of) and I'll let everyone know how it worked for us...

[VanorDM 11,599]

As a TO I loath setting event start times

I completely understand your pain, I've had to deal with it myself. when you annouse things do you just say 'starting at 11am, or registration at 10, round one stats at 11"?

Because I could see people thinking that starting at 11 means you show up then and get ready as opposed to that's when the first dials should be set.

But by letting people get away with that, you're being unfair to the people who are actually ready to start like they should. Sure it sucks but if you make them forfeit just once I'd be shocked if they ever do it again.

 

Therefore pre-built squad lists submitted (on tree-flesh or digitally) before the event start would be a wondrous requirement and make it a lot easier on the TO when it comes to starting on-time.

That's why most people have registration start an hour early, you could even do something like have registration from 10 to 10:30, with round 1 starting at 11. Then around 10:45 or so, you tell anyone who doesn't have a list to hand you that they missed out.

For something like a epic tournament I could see that being a thing where you wouldn't want to check lists the day of.

But as long as you advertise it and people know ahead of time that's fine when it's for a non-sanctioned event. But for things like Store Championships and the like I don't think a TO should be adding additional conditions.

I mean imagine that you showed up at a Store Championship and found out they were only allowing people to use stuff from wave 1-3.

Also keep in mind that what the OP was really talking about was having a printed list to hand to the people you're playing against, which isn't the same thing as having something to give to the TO.

Edited February 10, 2016 by VanorDM

[Parravon 5,217]

 

 

My biggest issue is someone not showing up prepared 5 minutes before the event starts and then trying to figure out a list and not being ready at the start time.

If they're not ready when the event starts they either play with what they have, so perhaps a 50 point list, or they forfeit the first game.

 

 

 

As a TO I loath setting event start times because there is always one, if not a handful, of people that thinks "Round 1 starts promptly at 11am" means: show up at 11am, open your squad builder, try to come up with a build, and submit the final squad list sometime before noon. To my own faults I allow this to happen by not wanting to tell people they're just out of luck and will have to try again next tournament or indicate they must forfeit their first match (as this is entirely unfair to a player who is ready-to-go, wants to play, and now has an essential super-bye for Round 1).

 

Therefore pre-built squad lists submitted (on tree-flesh or digitally) before the event start would be a wondrous requirement and make it a lot easier on the TO when it comes to starting on-time. I am trying this methodology of pre-submitted lists in the near future when we host an Epic tournament (I am not checking 300point squad lists for legality on the day of) and I'll let everyone know how it worked for us...

 

That describes the general apathy of every gamer I've ever met.

 

You just have to get hard with these people and tell them "First round starts at 11:00. If your ships aren't on the table then, you'll forfeit that match. So be early!" There has to be a consequence for missing the start.

 

The last tourney I did, I had quite a few inexperienced players so I basically told them to email their lists to me no later than the evening before the tourney. That way I could check their lists were valid and refer them to any errors they may need to correct well before the start time. And it worked out perfectly.

 

You've got to create a structured tournament timetable and not deviate from it because of those "few" that think they can just roll along and you'll be fine with it. Because as you've said, it's not fair on the guys that are early and prepared. You, or your players don't have to put up with the guy that rocks in late with the excuse of "I'm late because I was trying to find a carpark in the shade" or something equally lame.

[VanorDM 11,599]

"I'm late because I was trying to find a carpark (parking spot) in the shade"

Just translating into American...

[Parravon 5,217]

 

"I'm late because I was trying to find a carpark (parking spot) in the shade"

Just translating into American...

 

What language is that, old boy? A sub-dialect of English?

[VanorDM 11,599]

A sub-dialect of English?

No, it's the true language... but it keeps getting mauled by those brits and them wanting to add needless u's to everything.

[Farlander 133]

What I did as TO for our last SC was this:

To prevent list building at the spot after checking out the competition I had the participants e-mail me their lists as squad-builder-link several days in advance. Failure to send me the list would result in a penalty, making them automatically lose the choice of initiative and giving the opponent 4 obstacles to deploy instead of only 3. This made everyone send in their lists in advance. Walk-ins were not possible, so one either had registered and paid in advance or one could not participate.

Having the lists as squad builder links made checking the lists for legality easy - just a quick glance was all that was needed. Then I printed out two copies: One for each player, so everyone would have their own list available and another copy of their list went to the the "wall of lists". I think that was a nice feature, so everyone could see and check every list at the tournament and it made it impossible/dangerous to cheat by submitting one list and then coming up with another list. (No, cheating has not been a problem ever in our area, but the "wall of list" accidentally worked against that, too.)

 

[ScottieATF 2,867]

So you changed the rules of an FFG sanctioned event?

[Parravon 5,217]

 

A sub-dialect of English?

No, it's the true language... but it keeps getting mauled by those brits and them wanting to add needless u's to everything.

 

It's not the British adding needless letters, it's the Colonials taking short-cuts by missing them out, that's mauling it.

[John79 47]

I don't know why having a list, two, or three ready to turn in at a tournament is such a baffling idea.  Shame on you if you are doing your homework the day it's due.  Stay in your own hanger and may the best pilot win.