Suggestion - Paper lists should be mandatory for official events

[ancientsociety 4]

So after playing in a couple of X-Wing tournaments over the past few months, I've noticed a that practically no one brings lists for official events...and honestly, I think it's leading many to either confuse ships or use this to an unsportsmanlike advantage.

As a seasoned tabletop gamer and tournament organizer, X-Wing is the only game I've ever encountered that doesn't require players to bring a list with all their choices neatly spelled out for the tournament organizers and opponents with points cost totals. How are X-Wing TOs verifying that players aren't making illegal choices? How are they verifying total points cost?

Since it's habit for me, I print and bring a list and my opponents always seem shocked when I hand it to them. Everything's accounted for. If I'm using multiples of the same ship type, the ship number is shown in the list entry.

The problem I've run into is that this lack of documentation often leads to confusion or is taken advantage of by unscrupulous players. For example, I was in a tournament yesterday where, in the 2nd to final round, myself and my opponent were playing for 4th place seating in the final round. My opponent had two Ys - one with BTL and TLT, one with just TLT. Both were close together and, in a bunched up dogfight, he started making both a primary and TLT attack with the non-titled Y. I finally caught it and I removed the damage I could remember it doing but am still unsure whether we removed it all correctly. My opponent had forgotten that one Y didn't have BTL and could only make one attack. Needless to say, I lost that game (which is fine, I don't want to seem like a bad loser).....but the situation left me thinking about the other times I had faced an opponent who made mistakes that were advantageous to their play. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

While I don't want to sound like I'm accusing others of cheating, I'm concerned with what appears to be a fairly widespread problem in official events and could be easily rectified with the requirement that players bring an army list like every other tabletop game.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Tournament Rules, page 4; Squad Building- paragraph 4:

 

"Each player must submit a squad list, including all associated Upgrade cards, total squad points, and obstacles to the tournament organizer before the start of the tournament. Players must use that squad for the duration of the tournament. "

 

​The issue you ran into is a player with identical ships but asymmetrical abilities. This can be an honest mistake. If a player is taking extra shots with ships that cannot do so, inform the judge so that the behaviour can be checked against previous rounds. He may have performed the error beforehand and has forgotten again. Also, this allows the judge to note the behaviour and take appropriate responses should it occur again.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Sergovan

[DailyRich 3,346]

Tournament Rules, page 4; Squad Building- paragraph 4:

 

"Each player must submit a squad list, including all associated Upgrade cards, total squad points, and obstacles to the tournament organizer before the start of the tournament. players must use that squad for the duration of the tournament. "

 

I think the OP's point is that a lot of people aren't doing this or requiring this.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Yeah every event I've done they have said before-hand to bring them. If someone doesn't have one, they are pretty lenient and such. But it is usually on the info for the event (official or not)

[Toqtamish 3,643]

It is required. I get lists for every event I run and bring blank copies with me for people to fill out. This is on the TO. 

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

Tournament Rules, page 4; Squad Building- paragraph 4:

 

"Each player must submit a squad list, including all associated Upgrade cards, total squad points, and obstacles to the tournament organizer before the start of the tournament. players must use that squad for the duration of the tournament. "

 

I think the OP's point is that a lot of people aren't doing this or requiring this.

 

 

My point was that they are a requirement so he has a right to ask for the squad sheet of his opponents.

[ancientsociety 4]

 

Tournament Rules, page 4; Squad Building- paragraph 4:

 

"Each player must submit a squad list, including all associated Upgrade cards, total squad points, and obstacles to the tournament organizer before the start of the tournament. players must use that squad for the duration of the tournament. "

 

I think the OP's point is that a lot of people aren't doing this or requiring this.

 

 

Yeah, that's it. Not one of the events I've played in has required them....

[Toqtamish 3,643]

Talk to the TO. 

[ancientsociety 4]

Before Sergovan pointed out the rule, I had no idea there was one. Thank you for your help, I'll be sure to ask for lists and bring it to TO's attention going forward

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

...X-Wing is the only game I've ever encountered that doesn't require players to bring a list with all their choices neatly spelled out for the tournament organizers and opponents with points cost totals.

There are really two separate questions here. The first is whether players are required to submit squad sheets to the TO, and I've never played a tournament where that didn't happen. The second is whether players are required to have squad sheets on hand to show their opponents, and the answer is that FFG's rules don't address it. In part, that's because technically your list is laid out in front of you in the form of pilot cards and upgrade cards.

 

But I've attended tourneys that do ask all players to bring a squad sheet, and it makes things go much more smoothly. It also makes it easy for me to verify that my opponent is running what the same list he was last round, which (especially in a big tournament) you might not have any way to check other than asking the TO to spot-check your opponent's list--and not only is that often interpreted as rude to the opponent, it isn't feasible for the TOs to do at every table.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Vorpal Sword

[USCGrad90 884]

At the tournaments I've been to, I handed my sheet to the TO and he returned it to me prior to the matches so we could exchange lists to review prior to beginning. Any questions on abilities were resolved beforehand to make sure we knew what our opponent was running. It's also not a guarantee that there won't be mistakes. I overcosted one of my upgrades from 3 to 4 points on one sheet and it was not until the 3rd game that somebody said something. In that case I was running Soontir and lost initiative bid when I should have not.

[Slugrage 5,011]

All the cards for all the ships should be laid out on the table, beside the mat, and every ship should be carrying a numbered token if they're the same pilot/ship/whatever to avoid any confusion. It should be nothing more than a quick glance to see what ship is being activated, along with all of the equipped upgrades.

[VanorDM 11,599]

In the events i've played, I normally fill out a sheet and hand it to the TO, with the point values listed on it. If the TO isn't sure about my list it wouldn't take long to run it though Voidstate or Yet Another to double check the math.

I know that works better in a smaller tournament then a larger one. But if someone has a 105 point list I'd be surprised if they make it through the 1st round without someone noticing.

Can someone change their list between rounds? Sure but if someone is going to do that, they could also bring 6-8 printed lists out and swap them between rounds...

Having a printed list however wouldn't help with what the OP's point seemed to be. Having the cards out and having ships numbered where needed should be all anyone needs to do, that would in fact be easier to keep track of then a list would be.

Edited February 8, 2016 by VanorDM

[VanorDM 11,599]

Since this is a killer idea and applies here as well I wanted to post this quote from another thread...

As a TO, and someone who likes his kit to stay as pristine as possible, I recommend sleeving your pilot cards. This allows you to slide the ID token inside of the sleeve so that it cannot get jostled around, thus avoiding the chance of mistaken identities.

[ancientsociety 4]

Since this is a killer idea and applies here as well I wanted to post this quote from another thread...

 

As a TO, and someone who likes his kit to stay as pristine as possible, I recommend sleeving your pilot cards. This allows you to slide the ID token inside of the sleeve so that it cannot get jostled around, thus avoiding the chance of mistaken identities.

 

 

Yep, I do this too. The number token are just thin enough to fit into the top of a hard card protector without falling out

[1mikethebuilder1 20]

Absolutely. I require printed squad lists at my games, one for the judge (me) and one on hand at the table for the opponent to view in a simple, easy to read format, and to verify squad points and the cards he has in front of him. I couldn't agree more. Easy to both forget and slip things through and both players need to know what's going on to prevent cheating and mistakes. Should be mandatory.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Really comes back to the TO. I alwaysbrequire people bring lists. I might not even check them, but opponents share them when they play.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I've always had to turn in a sheet but I've never had to bring one with me. Blanks were always provided to fill out. I would hate to have to bring a preprinted sheet with me to a tournament. That's just one more thing I'd have to worry about getting and bringing with me seems like it would really hose you if you changed your mind about what you were running at the last minute.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

But change it based on what? Once youve seen other players builds? I really think you should bring what you plan to play with.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Darth Emphatic

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Also the best lists are one's you've practiced flying and know well, in my experience anyway.

 

If I swapped when I arrived, I'm sure I'd do awfully.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Also the best lists are one's you've practiced flying and know well, in my experience anyway.

 

If I swapped when I arrived, I'm sure I'd do awfully.

I am with you. I almost brought something new to my last store championship but decided that was crazy talk.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I really think you should bring what you plan to play with.

I know at least some people will build a list when they get there. Not because they can scout out what people are playing but because they just like building lists on the fly. Or perhaps some thought occurred to them on the way to the store and they want to try it out.

The TO can do what the TO wants, but there is nothing in the rules that say you have to bring a printed list, or share a list with someone else.

I know myself if I showed up for an event and was told I couldn't play because I didn't bring a pre-printed list, I'd never visit that store again. Because the TO is making up rules that aren't part of the standard rule set.

This is especially true of Store Championship events. Lots of people travel for those and if a TO starts adding conditions then there's an issue there. In fact if enough people got turned away they could get FFG involved and get that store banned from hosting further Store Championship events.

Edited February 9, 2016 by VanorDM

[WWHSD 9,273]

But change it based on what? Once youve seen other players builds? I really think you should bring what you plan to play with.

 

Based on what I feel like playing that morning when I'm packing my stuff.

 

I'm not running to Kinkos to print out a squad list. If the TO wants the information they should provide blank squad sheets to be filled out. If my opponent wants to know what I'm running he should listen when I run through it during the start of the match or ask me.  

[VanorDM 11,599]

If the TO wants the information they should provide blank squad sheets to be filled out.

Every event I've been to, including Regionals at the FFG Event Center does it this way for sanctioned events. They give you a sheet to fill out so the TO knows what your squad is, and that's the extent of it.

Again a pre-printed list does nothing special... I can still change my list up if I wanted to, just got to bring more than one list. Requiring a pre-printed list means people can't make up a list on the fly if they so chose, or make tweaks to their list.

The rules do not require a printed list to share with other people, and frankly it does nothing, my cards are clearly visible on the table already. And as I said, requiring one is adding conditions to a tournament that don't otherwise exist.

So it does nothing positive that I can see, but could cause a number of issues for some people.

[dotswarlock 2,424]

On the topic of confusing which ship has which ability, I fixed the problem easily on my end with paint: my IG-88B has red highlights and IG-88C has green.  It's the best way to make sure I don't confuse which IG used which bomb / inertia dampener.

 

At first, I was of the mindset that keeping my opponent confused about which IG had what by keeping them plain was to my advantage, but then i realized that I was just as liable to forget abilities