Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Steel Cavalry

Set to Stun

Recommended Posts

Hey everyone! Had a quick question after my group has exposed a loophole in the system. This might be covered somewhere but I have been looking through the books and haven't had luck so far.

 

The PCs were trying to capture the bad guy and the battle started going against them. Then, one of the players had an idea. He grabbed two stun grenades from his belt, and as the bad guy was about to wail on him, defenseless and prone, he pulled the pins and told me he would just hold them. This is where the confusion comes in. As many of you might have realized, stun damage is very one sided. PCs recover from stun and only the toughest of baddies do as well, but this makes it so that players aren't afraid to suicide stun themselves like mine did. If it was a one on one, he might've been worried he wouldn't recover first, but a couple members of the team were still conscious. So how do I deal with this? Do the rules address this anywhere? One player suggested making any stun damage over the strain threshold lethal damage instead but I wasn't totally comfortable with that either. 

 

For anyone who wants to reference the encounter, it is the basic module in the back of the Edge of the Empire core rule book. They had incapacitated everyone but the boss and were dealing with just him.

 

Thanks for any help that you can provide!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stun effects will only affect the targeted individual unless enough adv are rolled to activate the blast effect. That said, the Gm has licence to allow the blast effect if it makes sense. I would have the player roll a brawl check to get the bad guy into range of the stun blast. I might start giving the players a hard time if they start over over using this tactic. But that would be the same with any tactic being used over and over again.
Also, given the fact that grenades have fuses to allow the user to throw it at the target, there is no guarantee that the grenades would go off before the bad guy hit him. Perhaps allow the bad guy an attack then have the grenades go off. All in all though, I don't see the harm in letting them succeed when they come up with an original idea.

Edited by eldath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Give your npc wounds so your players understand that tactic may work against minions but not if they're intended to be the PCs Nemesis's!

Ever thought about giving your villain stun resistant armour?

If your players are prone to over using this tactic it becomes exceedingly likely their enemies will eventually cotton and prepare against such an attack... do stun grenades work on an AT-ST if the driver is shielded?

Do your villains start sniping them?

There are quite a few ways to deal with this for example what if the npc they're supposed to be protecting would be caught in the blast?

I'd just have their targets be unconscious not dead, but that's not something I'd want any player in my game knowing about.

And yes I've had a so-called Jedi slicing throats after knocking out opponents... this was WEG d6 and I wasn't running that game!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grenades have blast damage, so if the player was holding them if would affect them and anyone engaged with them but the player would be considered the target.

So they would do a lot more stun to the player then to the enemies. You could just quietly increase the strain threshold on your enemy without the players knowing.

Edited by John1701

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey everyone! Had a quick question after my group has exposed a loophole in the system. This might be covered somewhere but I have been looking through the books and haven't had luck so far.

 

The PCs were trying to capture the bad guy and the battle started going against them. Then, one of the players had an idea. He grabbed two stun grenades from his belt, and as the bad guy was about to wail on him, defenseless and prone, he pulled the pins and told me he would just hold them. This is where the confusion comes in. As many of you might have realized, stun damage is very one sided. PCs recover from stun and only the toughest of baddies do as well, but this makes it so that players aren't afraid to suicide stun themselves like mine did. If it was a one on one, he might've been worried he wouldn't recover first, but a couple members of the team were still conscious. So how do I deal with this? Do the rules address this anywhere? One player suggested making any stun damage over the strain threshold lethal damage instead but I wasn't totally comfortable with that either. 

 

For anyone who wants to reference the encounter, it is the basic module in the back of the Edge of the Empire core rule book. They had incapacitated everyone but the boss and were dealing with just him.

 

Thanks for any help that you can provide!

I'd let them do it.  You don't recover from Strain while an encounter is ongoing unless you have Second Wind or use Advantages on a roll, so if the baddie goes down, they're down, and then it is race to wake up first if you're alone.

 

In addition, depending on the surroundings and circumstances, it isn't automatically necessary to have the requisite Advantages to trigger Blast effect.  I think a suicide move like that would catch most people off guard.

 

Stun Grenades Blast effect is the same as their base damage, so on a successful hit, and Blast activation, everyone engaged suffers the exact same hit to their Strain as the target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be inclined to allow it, but...

Rather than making a Ranged (Light) attack I'd have the player make a Cool or Discipline check- I don't think a Stun-based attack is analogous to pillow fighting, it probably hurts. Want to pull the pins and hold 'em? How big is your pair?

Let Advantage generated on the check determine whether Blast is triggered or not, and if not the PC goes night-night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be inclined to allow it, but...

Rather than making a Ranged (Light) attack I'd have the player make a Cool or Discipline check- I don't think a Stun-based attack is analogous to pillow fighting, it probably hurts. Want to pull the pins and hold 'em? How big is your pair?

Let Advantage generated on the check determine whether Blast is triggered or not, and if not the PC goes night-night.

Good a check as any, and upgrade it, because holding onto something about to go boom just has to have consequences...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be inclined to allow it, but...

Rather than making a Ranged (Light) attack I'd have the player make a Cool or Discipline check- I don't think a Stun-based attack is analogous to pillow fighting, it probably hurts. Want to pull the pins and hold 'em? How big is your pair?

Let Advantage generated on the check determine whether Blast is triggered or not, and if not the PC goes night-night.

Ever held a NICO “flash bang” grenade in your hand when it went off?

See

and
and

Then ask yourself what it would be like to hold that in your hand when it goes off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then ask yourself what it would be like to hold that in your hand when it goes off.

 

 

Yeah, I was about to say - just because a weapon is non lethal doesn't mean that it's non-damaging. Tazers can kill someone under the right circumstances and bean bag bullets do less damage than bullets, sure - but getting shot with one at extreme point blank range can do serious injury.

 

So yeah, let him do that - and then apply a crit to his hands. Lets see how eager he is to do that again when he has to deal with a Crippled or Maimed effect for the rest of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! It was something they only tried once, and I rewarded the ingenuity at the time but I know a couple of them can't help but be munchkins sometimes so I didn't want it to become a habit. I really like the non lethal's doing crit damage to hands or having to make a cool or vigilance check to pull it off!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! It was something they only tried once, and I rewarded the ingenuity at the time but I know a couple of them can't help but be munchkins sometimes so I didn't want it to become a habit. I really like the non lethal's doing crit damage to hands or having to make a cool or vigilance check to pull it off!

 

Stun grenades still have small explosive charges in them to make the grenade work. While the charge isn't as powerful as a frag grenade it is still powerful enough to mangle someone's fingers and hand. It's powerful enough to blow off a few fingers and that is just the explosive. Add in the concussive force from the rest of the grenade he'd lose his hand, suffer blindness from shrapnel, and possibly blow their eardrums out. All in all they can be lethal, especially to someone holding onto them. I would have had the grenades do a crit that would have applied the effects of two lost hands, permanent blindness, and permanent deafness. I hope they have enough money to cover the costs of the necessary cybernetic replacements and for the emergency visit to the local med center.

Edited by ThePatriot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't think of Star Wars stun grenades as flash bangs.  Too many people running around in helmets with eye and ear protection for that to be an effective option.  I think they just emit a 360 pules similar to the stun shot we see in Ep 4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The current catch phrase in the biz is actually less lethal....

Arg. After years of "non-lethal" it took some time to get used to "less than lethal".

As for the OP, I agree with Alekzanter and 2P51, still a scary prospect. I'd applaud the ingenuity too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't think of Star Wars stun grenades as flash bangs.  Too many people running around in helmets with eye and ear protection for that to be an effective option.  I think they just emit a 360 pules similar to the stun shot we see in Ep 4.

 

Then the character holding the grenades in both hands suffers from severe nerve damage that makes both his hands unusable. You'd also have the complications of possible heart attack and brain death due to the current involved as the current attempts to find a grounding source. Due to the character wearing footwear with a rubber or similar sole there is no way for the electrical charge to ground itself. That would increase the chances of suffering a heart attack or brain death as the charge dissipates. The end result is the character ends up in the emergency department of the local med center for resuscitation from death and cybernetic replacements for his hands. 

Edited by ThePatriot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Then the character holding the grenades in both hands suffers from severe nerve damage that makes both his hands unusable. You'd also have the complications of possible heart attack and brain death due to the current involved as the current attempts to find a grounding source. Due to the character wearing footwear with a rubber or similar sole there is no way for the electrical charge to ground itself. That would increase the chances of suffering a heart attack or brain death as the charge dissipates. The end result is the character ends up in the emergency department of the local med center for resuscitation from death and cybernetic replacements for his hands. 

 

 

Eh, let's not forget to roll for previously-undiagnosed congenital heart defects, as well. :)

 

In all seriousness though, I think the easiest way to cover it would be to just treat the player as the primary target, taking listed damage even if whatever check he used technically fails. Want to apply some kind of penalty? Allow both grenades to count as one "strike" against the player, allowing more of the damage to bypass soak. REALLY want to penalize the player? No soak.

 

If it becomes a crutch tactic? Word begins to spread, so foes are prepared. Give the player a permanent -2 soak penalty vs stun, or permanently reduce Strain threshold if it gets to abusive levels of use. Have the hair on one side of their head (if applicable) permanently stand up. Just one side. That way they either have to work at getting a normal look, or work at getting a mad scientist look. Players tend to be vain about either their stats or their character's 'presence' (not to be confused with the stat) so working on one or the other should bring them back in line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't necessarily inflict permanent injuries with such a tactic, but I agree that an auto-crit might be appropriate.

One element that I have in my games that would make this tactic much less appealing, is that being stunned is not only unpleasant (EU sources describe effects like a severe hangover), but a stun victim typically needs medical attention or a long time to wake back up.

 

It would suck to have an army of bad guys show up while one of the team is unconscious, and then the other PCs have to decide if they can carry their stunned friend to safety or leave them behind. Best to not get stunned in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got no dog in the fight for crits or necessarily any particular result, but there definitely should be consequences.  Like maybe it's rolled as a simple check for damage on the PC and the target gets it automatically with the Blast.  If there are Advantages for Disorient both the PC and target get that as well maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Then the character holding the grenades in both hands suffers from severe nerve damage that makes both his hands unusable. You'd also have the complications of possible heart attack and brain death due to the current involved as the current attempts to find a grounding source. Due to the character wearing footwear with a rubber or similar sole there is no way for the electrical charge to ground itself. That would increase the chances of suffering a heart attack or brain death as the charge dissipates. The end result is the character ends up in the emergency department of the local med center for resuscitation from death and cybernetic replacements for his hands. 

 

 

Eh, let's not forget to roll for previously-undiagnosed congenital heart defects, as well. :)

 

In all seriousness though, I think the easiest way to cover it would be to just treat the player as the primary target, taking listed damage even if whatever check he used technically fails. Want to apply some kind of penalty? Allow both grenades to count as one "strike" against the player, allowing more of the damage to bypass soak. REALLY want to penalize the player? No soak.

 

If it becomes a crutch tactic? Word begins to spread, so foes are prepared. Give the player a permanent -2 soak penalty vs stun, or permanently reduce Strain threshold if it gets to abusive levels of use. Have the hair on one side of their head (if applicable) permanently stand up. Just one side. That way they either have to work at getting a normal look, or work at getting a mad scientist look. Players tend to be vain about either their stats or their character's 'presence' (not to be confused with the stat) so working on one or the other should bring them back in line.

 

 

That would be too lenient in my opinion. If a player is going to do something that is so stupid as to hold onto two stun grenades then they deserve to be killed through their own stupidity. Think of it as the group's own personal Darwin Awards. I don't suffer fools lightly. ;)

Edited by ThePatriot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see SW stun grenades as similar to the anti droid grenades used in TCW sending out a shock pulse.

As such i wouldn't blow a players hand off for holding one but I'd certainly start to give negative effects.

when the player needs to do something requiring manual dexterity flip a destiny point and upgrade his check; telling him that his hand is starting to tremble uncontrollably.

If he gets a despair then it'll keep twitching and add a setback dice to any further checks requiring manual dexterity.

If he seeks proper medial attention then the twitch can be reversed but the medic should warn him that he's done a small amount of permanent nerve damage and similar damage could make his condition worse.

Don't stop the tactic entirely but make sure they know there will be a penalty for persistent use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is an utterly fantastic idea! Hamper him in the future with "lingering nerve damage" and use the excuse to upgrade checks against him intermittently. That would dissuade anyone from overusing the tactic AND be a cool penalty which not only is non lethal but actually adds something cool to the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Then the character holding the grenades in both hands suffers from severe nerve damage that makes both his hands unusable. You'd also have the complications of possible heart attack and brain death due to the current involved as the current attempts to find a grounding source. Due to the character wearing footwear with a rubber or similar sole there is no way for the electrical charge to ground itself. That would increase the chances of suffering a heart attack or brain death as the charge dissipates. The end result is the character ends up in the emergency department of the local med center for resuscitation from death and cybernetic replacements for his hands. 

 

 

Eh, let's not forget to roll for previously-undiagnosed congenital heart defects, as well. :)

 

In all seriousness though, I think the easiest way to cover it would be to just treat the player as the primary target, taking listed damage even if whatever check he used technically fails. Want to apply some kind of penalty? Allow both grenades to count as one "strike" against the player, allowing more of the damage to bypass soak. REALLY want to penalize the player? No soak.

 

If it becomes a crutch tactic? Word begins to spread, so foes are prepared. Give the player a permanent -2 soak penalty vs stun, or permanently reduce Strain threshold if it gets to abusive levels of use. Have the hair on one side of their head (if applicable) permanently stand up. Just one side. That way they either have to work at getting a normal look, or work at getting a mad scientist look. Players tend to be vain about either their stats or their character's 'presence' (not to be confused with the stat) so working on one or the other should bring them back in line.

 

 

That would be too lenient in my opinion. If a player is going to do something that is so stupid as to hold onto two stun grenades then they deserve to be killed through their own stupidity. Think of it as the group's own personal Darwin Awards. I don't suffer fools lightly. ;)

 

 

To be clear, do you mean as a one-time stunt, or as a repeated tactic? Either way, the character is really just basically tasing himself, and if Youtube has taught me anything it's that this is regrettably survivable by the most average of constitutions. There are outliers, but then we end up back at the comment about pre-existing medical conditions. Actually, isn't there a game where you have a chance at losing a character during character creation with a bad roll?

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Then the character holding the grenades in both hands suffers from severe nerve damage that makes both his hands unusable. You'd also have the complications of possible heart attack and brain death due to the current involved as the current attempts to find a grounding source. Due to the character wearing footwear with a rubber or similar sole there is no way for the electrical charge to ground itself. That would increase the chances of suffering a heart attack or brain death as the charge dissipates. The end result is the character ends up in the emergency department of the local med center for resuscitation from death and cybernetic replacements for his hands. 

 

 

Eh, let's not forget to roll for previously-undiagnosed congenital heart defects, as well. :)

 

In all seriousness though, I think the easiest way to cover it would be to just treat the player as the primary target, taking listed damage even if whatever check he used technically fails. Want to apply some kind of penalty? Allow both grenades to count as one "strike" against the player, allowing more of the damage to bypass soak. REALLY want to penalize the player? No soak.

 

If it becomes a crutch tactic? Word begins to spread, so foes are prepared. Give the player a permanent -2 soak penalty vs stun, or permanently reduce Strain threshold if it gets to abusive levels of use. Have the hair on one side of their head (if applicable) permanently stand up. Just one side. That way they either have to work at getting a normal look, or work at getting a mad scientist look. Players tend to be vain about either their stats or their character's 'presence' (not to be confused with the stat) so working on one or the other should bring them back in line.

 

 

That would be too lenient in my opinion. If a player is going to do something that is so stupid as to hold onto two stun grenades then they deserve to be killed through their own stupidity. Think of it as the group's own personal Darwin Awards. I don't suffer fools lightly. ;)

 

 

To be clear, do you mean as a one-time stunt, or as a repeated tactic? Either way, the character is really just basically tasing himself, and if Youtube has taught me anything it's that this is regrettably survivable by the most average of constitutions. There are outliers, but then we end up back at the comment about pre-existing medical conditions. Actually, isn't there a game where you have a chance at losing a character during character creation with a bad roll?

 

:)

 

 

It would be a one time stunt as the party would know not to do that. Yeah, it was Cyberpunk 2012/2020 where you had a chance of your character dying during character creation. That was fun to deal with.  :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Love this Idea! Award Xp to the injenious player who knows he can't beat the enemy so opts for a draw instead, trusting in his friends around him to make sure he is ok.

 

I think many people are getting bogged down with the "minusha" of the stun granades.  Guys, it's a sci-fi game, lets not ruin the flow and emersion of this great idea by picking it apart because of "physics". :)

 

I would be inclined to just have the grenades take both the PC holding them, and the Enemy out of the fight just because it was such a good idea. despite what the dice told me.

 

Great idea and narrative actions whould be rewarded. This will encourage more great ideas and "thinking out of the box" by your players. If they feel that their "strange" ideas will just get picked apart by the logic police then really guys, why are we bothering to play RPG's in the first place?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Love this Idea! Award Xp to the injenious player who knows he can't beat the enemy so opts for a draw instead, trusting in his friends around him to make sure he is ok.

 

I think many people are getting bogged down with the "minusha" of the stun granades.  Guys, it's a sci-fi game, lets not ruin the flow and emersion of this great idea by picking it apart because of "physics". :)

 

I would be inclined to just have the grenades take both the PC holding them, and the Enemy out of the fight just because it was such a good idea. despite what the dice told me.

 

Great idea and narrative actions whould be rewarded. This will encourage more great ideas and "thinking out of the box" by your players. If they feel that their "strange" ideas will just get picked apart by the logic police then really guys, why are we bothering to play RPG's in the first place?

 

It's not so much logic as internal consistency of the setting. If an NPC did that he would die as I described, so why should a PC be exempt from the internal consistency? I'm all for thinking outside of the box and do it all the time in the game I play in, but the actions I choose to do are consistent with the universe. The last thing he would do is pull a grenade and hold onto it because it's just as harmful to him as the enemy. There are other ways to deal with the situation that are far more creative, yet consistent with the universe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...