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MoffZen

Your experiences with the Raider II

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Hey guys ! I was wondering if you could share your expetiences with a Raider 2 ! How did you gear it, how did you fly it ? Under which admiral ?

 

Cheers !

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I've run them with SW-7 Ion Canons in an Ozzel fleet. They worked out just fine and due to their blue-dice focus tend to be more survivable than Raider-Is. 3-5 (depending on arcing and Concentrate Fire) damage per turn is pretty reliable and not really in great increments to use defense tokens against:

  • Brace generally removes just one damage, sometimes two. It's not generally as useful as it is against larger attacks (like from an ISD or a Demolisher run)
  • Evade's only real use it to try to reroll a crit to a non-crit, as each blue dice is one damage (SW-7s) no matter what it gets rerolled to.
  • Redirect is likely the most useful but you'll lose those shields eventually.
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I can see that the Raider 2 is a popular ship :P

 

I've decided to play one with Montferrat as the only upgrade and managing a single TIE Interceptor as an overall support ship for my ISD/VSD in a tournament. I'll report on the findings !

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The Raider-I with Expanded Launchers is lethal IF you have initiative and activation superiority. I have done and have seen done insane amounts of damage with that little bugger. Goes great with a Vader lead list or with Ordnance Experts on-board.

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I have tried 2 Raider-IIs with overload pulse in conjunction with the Avenger ISD-II. It worked brilliantly turning red an MC-80's defence tokens for the ISD to chew on. I lost the raider to the MC80 so it was an advantageous swap rather than a slam dunk.

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Hate em.

Same price as a Raider-I with Ordnance Experts with half the utility.

The Raider is a high skill ceiling ship that is going to succeed based on how well you fly it, not how many points you pack into it, and its hull is so weak that the survivability it gains by firing at medium range is, in my experience, negligible.

EDIT:

I feel the need to remark on the natural instinct to pair an R-II and OP up with Avenger. It's.... way better on paper. More accurately, it's NOT appreciably better at actually dealing damage as a pair than just a regular R-I with OE paired with the same Avenger, it just costs more.

Having an OP one-two punch just makes your activations predictable. They KNOW what ship you want to activate first, and they will use that against you.

Besides, it's not like they *aren't* going to spend defense tokens defending against a 3 black 2 blue with re-rolls. (It's not like the Raider has trouble getting into close range) Either they spend the token defending against the Raider and the Avenger gets to ignore it, or they DON'T spend the token, take more damage, and the Avenger has less work to do.

Honestly the Avenger is a great ship with *any* escort at all. OP is almost more of a liability than a boon, in my experience.

Edited by Tvayumat
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Hate em.

Same price as a Raider-I with Ordnance Experts with half the utility.

The Raider is a high skill ceiling ship that is going to succeed based on how well you fly it, not how many points you pack into it, and its hull is so weak that the survivability it gains by firing at medium range is, in my experience, negligible.

basically my experience
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Good feedbck there thanks ;)

 

The plan I had with mine was to escort and ISD and VSD so that it can contribute to freeing up their squadrons and throw an extra TIE Interceptor in the mix, or contribute dealing some damage to the ships (hence why the 2 variant and the blue range). Basically trying to attract as little attention as possible on it, but still helping out however it can. I don't think I should expect more from 53 points + 11 points of TIE Interceptors.

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I fly two with my ISD-II, but I also have noticed myself flying much more defensively. Giving them a Vet Cap and an SW7 make them small, quick, maneuverable, reliable ships. Motti also makes them very, very irritating. While each of these benefits is small individually, when they're used in concert it can be a less than fun time for your opponent. 

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So, I just had a game ! Even though it was a 7-3 loss through an experimental deployment on mine and well done maneuvers by my opponent, I've been lucky enough to find the hidden value of a Raider 2 with Montferrat ! :D

 

It works a bit like a reverse Jaina's Light : while the Jaina's light allows to be protected by a another ship yet and not lose its firepower, Montferrat acts as a human shield as soon as he hits speed 3, and he works extremely well against small ships that fire 1 to 2 dice rather than larger ships who don't care as much about being obstructed.

 

And by human shield, I don't mean himself protecting the Raider, but obscuring another ship and obscuring himself at the same time. By flying on the outside of the battle but close to a larger ship, he can position himself to obscure the ship it escorts while stilll benefitting from the obscuration bonus.

He also seriously deters flanking from lighter ships as well as squadrons, due to the Raider's short range firepower.

 

As such, I'm inclined to believe that the Raider 2 is more of a defensive ship than an offensive one. It is especially rewarding against the spam of light ships like the CR90 who are likely to have 1 to 2 dice after the obscuration. It is especially good to protect a larger target from being double arc'ed by a small ship, which is a technique they rely on to increase their damage output against larger ships.

 

My opponent had a CR90B swarm with Riekaan (8 CR90Bs !) and this really helped a lot to deter him from focusing fire on the ISD by ramming and double arc'ing. Montferrat OP :P

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Most of my experiments were with Raider-Is to abuse ordnance experts. Since that's been working as well as teaching rocks how to fly, I'm inclined to try Raider-IIs if I ever get them going again, and take SW-7s.

 

Because at least at that range, they can still use their evades. It's not much, but defense is the real weakness of this ship with it's mediocre unmodified firepower.

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Most of my experiments were with Raider-Is to abuse ordnance experts. Since that's been working as well as teaching rocks how to fly, I'm inclined to try Raider-IIs if I ever get them going again, and take SW-7s.

 

Because at least at that range, they can still use their evades. It's not much, but defense is the real weakness of this ship with it's mediocre unmodified firepower.

 

Glad you're giving them another go ;)

 

Truly, the best defense with a Raider is placement : on a flank, next to a more interesting target, outside of arcs and range of anything that can shoot more than 3 dice at it.

Sadly, this is also where it limits its firepower due to the short range.

 

It's best used as a deterrent from coming in close on a flank : it can literally prevent ships from ending their moves on a side arc of an ISD/VSD for example. It will also deter squadrons from getting in too close to the target. Example against an ISD's front arc : the Raider's AA can cover it without much trouble. If the enemy sends his squadrons this way, they are likely to eat the Raider's AA fire + the fighter screen that the ISD will have activated and this will probably cripple a decent bomber wing by killing 2 to 3 squadrons (and netting almost a CR90's worth in points !). If the ISD throws its AA as well, that's probably a dead bomber wing or crippled enough so that it's more an annoyance than a nuisance.

 

Then, when you see an opportunity to safely attack a larger ship, speed up and position, shoot and run.

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Well, honestly I want to go back tomy more exciting VSD/ISD archetype build I was using before a simulated Ackbar build blew it to pieces and made me stop. Unless I want to try massed RDR-IIs with SW-7s to try a munchkin build, I think I won't run them for a while. I'd rather use their points in Firesprays.

 

I'm just saying right now I think they might be the most viable between all the RDR options simply because it's the configuration that allows them to still use evades when they can still reach out and shoot ships. I also fully expect it to crumble as the RDR approaches its target and suddenly the two Evades don't work. I'll try it to see what happens, not because I think it's successful.

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I enjoy the positivity...

 

 

 

I did a quick look around, and if you're playing Imperials, the ONLY way to do it "Correctly" seems to be using only Imperial IIs and Gladiator Is with Dengar, Vader (Squadron) and Firesprays...  But you can't take any other squadrons, because they're crap, and only Motti is a worthwhile commander, because Tarkin and Vader are too expensive and Screed is replaced by Ordnance Experts...

 

 

Sheesh.

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Nah, I think theres room for Screed with GSDs flinging APTs everywhere. TIE still work as the cheapest fighter in the game, Interceptors have the cheapest counter.

 

Plenty of people love Ozzel too. It's just that of the two ships that could really use his ability (Well three I guess with the ISD), one of them (the Raider) is crap.

 

I might be too much of a pessimist but I see a lot of holes and deficiencies in the Empire. Rebels? Everything other than the CR-90B has a place in some well performing list or another.

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I might be too much of a pessimist but I see a lot of holes and deficiencies in the Empire. Rebels? Everything other than the CR-90B has a place in some well performing list or another.

I feel like there were daily discussions about how useless the Neb-B was during wave 1. I see the Raider as much the same: a high skill ship that can be lethal when used well.

Edited by Truthiness
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Nebulons were kind of troubled with the prevelance of Demolisher getting into side arcs to punch through, wouldn't you say? Now with Slaved turrets, intel officers, and the increase to 400 points you can give them better escorts and better equipment to hurt when they shoot.

 

Similarly Raiders are obsolete because of the upgrade of ambient firepower in a match. Raiders might have been able to live in smaller dice pools, but between Ackbar ramping up the rebels and Empire typically having better dice anyway, and TRCs guranteeing two damage out of a red dice, Raiders have a lot more to worry about and typically won't live long enough to be in effective range.

 

I just can't see how Raiders can be fixed. They need to live long enough to get into range and start being effective and I'm not sure how to accomplish this. Unless you can use some finesse to activate your Raider last to get into position, then be first activation to actually attack with it before your enemy shoots/moves off, the Raider is going to face an uphill struggle. And you can only do that with one. Since there's no ironclad way to ensure the Raider's survival (either by defense or successful arc-dodging at high speed), the Raider is imperiled.

 

Again, specifying the II version because blue dice means they have some standoff range. It isn't as great as the CR-90 (with Mothma, TRCs, and a defense slot to help it) but at least it's serviceable, and not "Kamikazie" levels of effectiveness. If it's a finesse weapon, it's too fine of a tool for most grunt work.

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I enjoy the positivity...

 

 

 

I did a quick look around, and if you're playing Imperials, the ONLY way to do it "Correctly" seems to be using only Imperial IIs and Gladiator Is with Dengar, Vader (Squadron) and Firesprays...  But you can't take any other squadrons, because they're crap, and only Motti is a worthwhile commander, because Tarkin and Vader are too expensive and Screed is replaced by Ordnance Experts...

 

 

Sheesh.

good thing I'm busting myths then :P
MoffZen likes this

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I enjoy the positivity...

 

 

 

I did a quick look around, and if you're playing Imperials, the ONLY way to do it "Correctly" seems to be using only Imperial IIs and Gladiator Is with Dengar, Vader (Squadron) and Firesprays...  But you can't take any other squadrons, because they're crap, and only Motti is a worthwhile commander, because Tarkin and Vader are too expensive and Screed is replaced by Ordnance Experts...

 

 

Sheesh.

good thing I'm busting myths then :P

 

 

Clon "The Hyneman" Troper5

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Yes, they can be ignored when they sit on the bench after being one-shot by any medium ship or larger that looks at them. :P

 

I have a question for you : can you describe the game(s) in which that happened ? How did that happen, what were you trying to accomplish with the Raider(s) ? That way, it contributes to the overall stress test of the comfort zone of the Raiders :D

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Letsee... there's that tournament where I ran three of them:

 

 

So... the list I ran was a Gladiator-I: Ozzel, Ordnance Experts, Engine techs, Insideous, with three Raider-Is with APTs, ordnance experts...and Tractor Beams.

 

The idea was to stun any small ships that were getting close and hold them in the fighter ball. That fighter ball being five TIE Bombers, a TIE Advanced, three Firesprays, and Rhymer.

 

The fighters worked! I managed to take down a couple of assault frigates with them and seriously harmed some other stuff!

...the Raiders un-worked. It was like handing 44 points to my enemy. I made the mistake of taking Opening salvo with them against an Ackbar list, thinking I could dance around them, but my opponent only needed to look at my ships to one-shot them.

 

I dont think I will ever again take Raider-Is. Every time I tried to get them into effective range, my opponent immediately attacked them with whatever dice on hand and the Raiders suffered for it. Getting into Black dice range, with only a brace token, is not conductive to Raider survival. The ship is pretty much a failure, at least the I version is. I can't see how the advocates can defend it using it like a mini-gladiator.

 

IF I try them again, it will be the II version. Because that way the ship can at least hang back at range, using the evades for some protection if the brace gets locked down, and the II version has more blue dice. Arming them with SW-7s means anytime it's in range, it instantly drops three damage out the front arc. That way at least they can pretend like the much better Rebel corvettes without inviting death like the I version.

...

 

 

Took three Raider-Is with Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes, and Tractor Beams today in a list. This was with an Ozzel Gladiator with tricks, and about ten fighters (6 bombers, 3 Firespray, one Advanced). Tabled the first game, last game lost two of them, and the only reason I didn't lose any in the middle game was because my opponent was a clumsy beginner who did not fire optimally.

 

Raider performance has been overwhelmingly disappointing. It hit me that whenever there's a raider in anyone's arc, they shoot at it, and even pitiful rear-guns on an Assault frigate is enough to take off the front shields of the Raider and set the alarms blaring as only four hull can save you from oblivion. Even the CR-90 could use the redirect again to take shields off of a non-facing arc to give it at least another turns' worth of defense.

 

And when I mean not firing fire optimally, I mean forgot his second attack.

 

A shame I can't remember exact times-of-death in that last game, though SomeKittens was my opponent and he might remember better. I do remember that most of the fields were rebels, and there were a lot of assault frigates out there. How do you approach one of those safely in a Raider? Because I do remember vividly losing shields on a rear-shot attack to the front of my Raider.

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To echo a lot of what has already been said, I think activation advantage is critical for the Raiders. Also to echo Tvayumat, they are absolutely not to be ignored. When I see multiple Raider-I ordnance carriers or SW7/Overload Pulse Raider-IIs across the table, I absolutely take notice. However, I would say that I am far less concerned by a Raider without an ordnance or ion upgrade - those really allow it to punch above its weight.

 

My primary list at the moment is an MC80 paired with dual gunnery team assault frigates and I have been playing against quite a few Raider lists lately. When there is no activation advantage, I have a great deal of success simply swatting Raiders aside. I was even able to win with an okay 7-3 score (but a low MOV) against an ISD plus three Raiders even though one of my MkIIs was thrashed in the process.

 

...the situation changed dramatically when I played against a squadron-less five activation (!!) Screed list that included two APT Raiders and a classic ACM Demolisher. It was kind of disgusting. It did lots of work, moved very quickly, and did not often present very ideal target selection decisions.

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