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Intensify Forward Firepower XVII: (Why Dano Loves Ozzel)

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An arguement that I truly understand.  That is why I said that part of this was a misunderstanding of the tone in the game.  I am a Magic Judge.  In Magic, we have three levels of rules enforcement based upon the level of the event.  At every event that is not at the "regular" level (which covers nearly all store-level tournaments), it is announced that the event is being held at X level and to act accordingly.

 

Having re-read the tournament rules I see that store champs are held at competitive, but don't recall any specific guidelines as to what that means other than a nebulous "stricter than casual".  I am not sure that most of the players even knew we were playing at that level.  To players like myself that have played other games, it truly felt like a lower level event.  Perhaps something like that might help avoid such issues in the future.  It will lead to a colder environment for such events as the expected precision increases but at there will be no further confusion about expectations.

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Intent is the issue. Was it intended to be a maneuver? Was it just a tool dropping? Even at a store championship, I'd err on unintentional unless there was a reason to doubt it.

They're freaking plastic spaceships. It's a game. You're not saving the world, nor are there bets going on. And nobody is paying you a salary to do so. It's nearly silly to get fired up over it.

At least that's how I see it. If he picked the ship up and committed to the move...absolutely. Too late.

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So before we get into an argument that is pointless and circular, as someone who has run events (though not for FFG in the past), I will say this:

  1. Without actually witnessing the event itself, it is impossible to make a determination in this kind of circumstance. Context matters a lot, as well as the exact order of events, so all of the arguments on here are theoretical about what maybe kinda coulda woulda shoulda happened but who knows, or, in other words, pointless.
  2. The TO should have, beforehand, for a competitive event, made clear that players should not give "take backsies", so to speak. Forgotten effects are one thing, but undoing moves should not occur. You take the burden off the players by saying, in advance, this should never be allowed for the fairness of all games and all players at a competitive event.
  3. Regardless of this, swearing and making a scene is always unacceptable. That's another point where a TO should step in and cool people down (and, if they both insist on being jerks, penalize them both). This is because of things like what was mentioned on the podcast: it makes everyone else not involved uncomfortable.

In short, opinions are like commanders: everyone has one. However, there is a right and wrong way to run events and set expectations, and I find the biggest mistake most TOs make is not doing that up front so that when things like this happen, you have already been clear about how it works and it wasn't a player judgment call.

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From what I saw, it was entirely accidental.  He didn't even touch the ship.  He also pulled the template away immediately with an audible "oops".

Blaklanner,

No, I did not see/hear what happened first hand. It was brought up in the midst of my own game. So I can't swear on specifics. But I'm my mother's son, and once I heard about the abrasive name calling, that's what I fixated on. Their game was over during turn three of mine and one of the players was, as I remember, visibly distraught.

I don't like giving false information. Thank you for the additional information and the calmness in which you presented it.

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@Reinholt

1) I did witness the event.  I was at the table next to them watching while waiting on my opponent.  Memory being what it is, my account of the event may not be flawless but I think that I have the right of what happened.

 

2) Completely in agreement, as per my previous post.

 

3) Also completely in agreement.  The TO didn't get involved until the game had already ended.  I don't think he knew that it was occurring.  Were I to have witnessed an altercation like that at an event where I was judging, both players would have, at minimum, gotten a very stern talking to and most likely had some penalties dropped on them.

 

@Versch

I completely understand, you gave the information as you were told (by the second player I assume because the first player left not long after talking to the TO after the game ended) and your reaction based on that information was correct.  The sportsmanship issue is indeed of utmost importantance if we are to have enjoyable games.  I am also simply trying to help reduce the potential for such issues in the future by raising the REL/expectation issue.

Edited by BlakLanner

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Shmitty set expectations in my first store championship he allowed us to handle situations as we saw fit. Normal rules we brought up to him. I go by a 1 mistake allowed and then I will just tell you no. So if you want to use a missed opportunity that is fine but after that one time I wont allow it. 

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Since there was a response I will just add this here rather than editing again:  If the facts were as Dano described, I am completely in agreement with him.  Once you move your ship, it is far too late even in the friendliest of competitive games.  That just isn't what happened in this case.

 

Overdawg: Would you really have pulled a gotcha in this case, given that up until then other errors like forgotten actions, missed attacks, forgotten critical effects, and whatnot were forgiven?

 

I would have especially for that reason.  I am fine with being lenient but people will abuse that consideration and I would have said exactly that to them.  I would expect no less from any opponent.  If it was just a friendly one v one I would not care but in any tournament environment you need to learn the game and the rules and accept the consequences of your actions.

Edited by Overdawg

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I think you misunderstand. 

 

 

Since there was a response I will just add this here rather than editing again:  If the facts were as Dano described, I am completely in agreement with him.  Once you move your ship, it is far too late even in the friendliest of competitive games.  That just isn't what happened in this case.

 

Overdawg: Would you really have pulled a gotcha in this case, given that up until then other errors like forgotten actions, missed attacks, forgotten critical effects, and whatnot were forgiven?

 

I would have especially for that reason.  I am fine with being lenient but people but people will abuse that consideration and I would said exactly that to them.

 

I think you misunderstand.  The person who had the hammer dropped on him was the one being lenient with his opponent in previous occasions.  I cannot say with complete certainty if that leniency was reciprocated by his opponent at any other point in the game.

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I think you misunderstand. 

 

 

Since there was a response I will just add this here rather than editing again:  If the facts were as Dano described, I am completely in agreement with him.  Once you move your ship, it is far too late even in the friendliest of competitive games.  That just isn't what happened in this case.

 

Overdawg: Would you really have pulled a gotcha in this case, given that up until then other errors like forgotten actions, missed attacks, forgotten critical effects, and whatnot were forgiven?

 

I would have especially for that reason.  I am fine with being lenient but people but people will abuse that consideration and I would said exactly that to them.

 

I think you misunderstand.  The person who had the hammer dropped on him was the one being lenient with his opponent in previous occasions.  I cannot say with complete certainty if that leniency was reciprocated by his opponent at any other point in the game.

 

Ooooh...my mistake.  Then yes I would have expected him to be just as fair but I still would have accepted it either way.  I would have been annoyed to be sure.

Edited by Overdawg

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That notch rule is a bit dumb in my opinion. You can freely place the maneuver tool 1cm away from the slits and get the exact same picture of where the ship is going. They should rewrite it as a maneuver is set when the ship is picked up to be moved and that's it, it would avoid the "I swear your honor, it slipped in by accident" issues like that.

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It works in Warmahordes.  Just not sure if it makes sense in a universe that has a level of technology where they can probably measure ranges down to the centimeter.  Maybe can measure ranges but not movement.

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That notch rule is a bit dumb in my opinion. You can freely place the maneuver tool 1cm away from the slits and get the exact same picture of where the ship is going. They should rewrite it as a maneuver is set when the ship is picked up to be moved and that's it, it would avoid the "I swear your honor, it slipped in by accident" issues like that.

Sure but at the same time people would take forever at that rate. This way you can still be off. I dont know about anyone else but 1mm has actually been important in my moves.

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It works in Warmahordes.  Just not sure if it makes sense in a universe that has a level of technology where they can probably measure ranges down to the centimeter.  Maybe can measure ranges but not movement.

We are talking about a ton of kilometers. That much data is a lot to process in the heat of battle.

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I think you misunderstand.  The person who had the hammer dropped on him was the one being lenient with his opponent in previous occasions.

 

 

If your opponent allows you to use the missed opportunities rule and you have no intention of allowing him the same. Then your missed opportunities should be played as missed opportunities, you thank your opponent for his generous offer but decline to take advantage of the offer or you don't even ask him to allow you to take the missed opportunity.

 

I am almost inclined to suggest that this behaviour is pretty close to Unsportsmanlike Conduct, as the player was ignoring the rule to his advantage, but when the rule was to his disadvantage it was enforced.

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True.  Kind of a moot point since I am sure their effective ranges are measured in some equivalent of km.  I have played games that allow premeasuring and those that don't.  I think I prefer not allowing it to speed things up and to make estimation skills more valuable but I do understand how the game is a bit more accessible allowing premeasuring.

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That notch rule is a bit dumb in my opinion. You can freely place the maneuver tool 1cm away from the slits and get the exact same picture of where the ship is going. They should rewrite it as a maneuver is set when the ship is picked up to be moved and that's it, it would avoid the "I swear your honor, it slipped in by accident" issues like that.

Sure but at the same time people would take forever at that rate. This way you can still be off. I don't know about anyone else but 1mm has actually been important in my moves.

 

 

Just last game we had 3-4 measurements (of range) within a 1mm, heck one of the measurements was exactly on the line and from my opponents view looked out and from mine looked in. Fire Arcs are another area where just the little shakes you get can put a ship in arc and out again.

 

That said my opponents and I have never had a great problem here, we do our best and agree as best we can then play on.

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Beacuse of shaky hands and slight differences in the measurement tools, I have always followed the idea that if it is so close that you can't really tell, allow it.  It is more fun to let people roll the dice rather than quibble over 1mm.

Edited by BlakLanner

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Beacuse of shaky hands and slight differences in the measurement tools, I have always followed the idea that if it is so close that you can't really tell, allow it.  It is more fun to let people roll the dice rather than quibble over 1mm.

100% agree to this. I'd rather lose to the chance of dice to a questionable call that will leave a bad taste in somebody's mouth.

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That notch rule is a bit dumb in my opinion. You can freely place the maneuver tool 1cm away from the slits and get the exact same picture of where the ship is going. They should rewrite it as a maneuver is set when the ship is picked up to be moved and that's it, it would avoid the "I swear your honor, it slipped in by accident" issues like that.

Sure but at the same time people would take forever at that rate. This way you can still be off. I dont know about anyone else but 1mm has actually been important in my moves.

 

I find the opposite: The indecisiveness due to inaccurate measurement probably slows the game down more than the one tool rule speeds it up by. I could very easily stall a game and hide behind the very rule that is supposed to prevent me stalling the game.

 

I would rather win or lose to good tactics, lucky dice rolls and good/poor ship choices than by an accidental ram or near miss.

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I've dodged and been in arcs by a bare 1mm.  (Let's do this again sorry... if only your plastic is in range, can he still shoot you?  or is range still determined cardboard to cardboard?)

 

I really really hate that stupid notching-in rule.  Its dumb, silly, and doesn't make much sense.  

 

Another crazy rules problem I've found.  The rest of the shield and plastic nubs all count for the SHIP during a bump, but not if you go off the side of the table.  What??  Seriously.  Why do we make this game extra difficult.

With that in mind, it seems you are able to deploy so that your shield dials hang off your side of the table.  

 

In general, this game has been much more of a pain for rules problems and arguments than Xwing has been.  And also Magic.  Even with the unpleasant sorts I've met at Magic, I can only remember perhaps twice where something was seriously sick.  

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Beacuse of shaky hands and slight differences in the measurement tools, I have always followed the idea that if it is so close that you can't really tell, allow it.  It is more fun to let people roll the dice rather than quibble over 1mm.

100% agree to this. I'd rather lose to the chance of dice to a questionable call that will leave a bad taste in somebody's mouth.

 

 

I tend to be the rules-lawyer type in every game I play, just because that's the kind of person I am.  Recently I've started adopting the above attitude more in my own games, and I've gotta say, it makes the game more fun and more friendly, even if I end up losing.

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I've dodged and been in arcs by a bare 1mm.  (Let's do this again sorry... if only your plastic is in range, can he still shoot you?  or is range still determined cardboard to cardboard?)

 

I really really hate that stupid notching-in rule.  Its dumb, silly, and doesn't make much sense.  

 

Another crazy rules problem I've found.  The rest of the shield and plastic nubs all count for the SHIP during a bump, but not if you go off the side of the table.  What??  Seriously.  Why do we make this game extra difficult.

With that in mind, it seems you are able to deploy so that your shield dials hang off your side of the table.  

 

In general, this game has been much more of a pain for rules problems and arguments than Xwing has been.  And also Magic.  Even with the unpleasant sorts I've met at Magic, I can only remember perhaps twice where something was seriously sick.  

Everything is done from card to card.  I totally understand 1mm being enough to make a difference as I have had measurements that close as well.  I only err on the permissive side when it is inconclusive.  1mm can be pretty noticeable if you have a steady hand with the laser or other ships don't get in the way if using the range ruler as a straight edge.

 

I think they count during bumps just to keep the ships' locations clean and precise by not letting them touch in any way.  Hanging over the edge of the board doesn't have that effect.

 

Magic has had 20 years to work on its rules.  The document containing said rules is also 211 pages long at this point and that doesn't even take into account tournament procedures and penalties for rules violations which are in two separate documents.  I can understand being rules lawer-ry as I have to be when I judge.  It takes some getting used to when you try to pull back on that a bit but it can really help.

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Lots of stuff going on here regarding rules, so here's my two cents;

In a tournament, I think its fair to expect your opponent to know and follow at least the most basic rules. There may be certain interactions between cards or whatever that get confusing, and require a TO ruling. And that should be the final word, regardless if whether you feel said TO gets the call right or not, its controlling for the tourny and players should simply accept it and move on. If its a really eggregious missed call, then post tournament you can find documentation and discuss it in a way that allows the TO to revisit and revise without having his/her pride trampled on.

If your opponent lets you take back some silly careless mistake (provided its caught pretty quickly and doesn' change anything they would do) then it is only sportsmanlike that you extend that same courtesy. If my opponent moves and realizes he forgot to take a shot that we both know he had, I let him take it.

As for the multiple tools/notch rule, I agree with Amanal in that we sort of let anything go in our casual games, and it actually speeds up play. But you wouldn't believe how many times I've uttered "Thats cool for here guys, but you should know if you go to a tournament thats not legal."

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