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Zaltyre

Shards of Everdark H&M Pack announced!

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I'm pretty sure an attack's dice resets after the attack? That's why phrasing like "until end of turn" exists, to make sure it doesn't reset after the attack.

I think so too, but skill cards are specifically refreshed at beginning of turn, and effects that state "until end of turn" do not apply any longer as if they immediately terminated by this "end of turn" trigger. Some plot cards state that the card can be left exhausted for the effect to apply as long as it is exhausted, but I cannot find any other example of an ability, monster especially where there is no mention of the end of effect. Common sense says it should be as part of a single attack, but the text can be interpreted as it could last forever for lack of event or step making it reset.

 

As part of combat, damage and surges are resolved as part of that sequence, but there is no real mention that I know of that states what happens to your "attack pool" (or defense pool if that matters). Speaking of which, Disciple grants extra dices to the next "attack pool" or "defense pool" but the card specifically says they only last for one attack, and then the card of course refreshes at start of Elder Mok Disciple's turn ;)

 

EDIT: Even the extra dice from One Fist states it differently. It says add the dice to your attack and by the way it is formulated I would think it is added to his attack pool, so basically each time that applies, he adds the green dice to whatever dices he gets from his weapons and abilities. Bullrush could have stated "Roll an extra dice for the attack if the target was not adjacent from the monster at activation", so why didn't they write it this way if so was the intent?

 

I think my playgroup would not argue (well otherwise they´re in trouble, lol), but newer players could interprete it as if you were getting an extra dice all the time. And if it's until end of turn, you can still turn this into something crazy when your monster gets to attack several times, assuming you´re combo:ing off with some OL cards.

Edited by Indalecio

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It's all kind of hard with "adding to the pool". AFAIK spiritseaker adds one dice with stone skin for 1 attack.  Otherwise you could think that effect of this card never clears, so that defence dice would last forever.

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My take was that if you attack someone (a space) who's not adjacent when the Minotaur starts it's activation, you add one red die.. no matter how many attacks/moves you make.

 

The trigger is adjacent/not adjacent, so the trigger can only be applied once.

Edited by Alarmed

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My take was that if you attack someone who's not adjacent when the Minotaur starts it's turn, you add one die.. no matter how many attacks/moves you make.

 

The trigger is adjacent/not adjacent, so the trigger can only be applied once.

In my reading there is no way it is not 'add a red in this case and then it goes away.' Exactly like the iron claws, buy different die, different requirement.

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Maybe FFG should start to use more symbols on their cards so a slightly different formulation doesn't spark a debate on their forums. Too often did bad wording result in a situation that led to frustration among players. 

 

While that's not a bad idea, it would need to be well established what the symbols meant. I also don't think using words is a problem, so long as a conscious effort is made to consistently use the same words for the same thing. That is, "add 1 additional red to your attack pool" is perfectly clear, but don't say "add 1 additional red to your attack pool" one place and "roll 1 additional red" elsewhere. (FYI, I'm not currently aware of anywhere this type of ability is phrased differently.)

Edited by Zaltyre

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That's a post I needed to participate:

 

1 - One fist having the extra Y die in the early campaign is just ruthless, even more if wielding a trident... no words. However, I do not think the OL being nerfed at all. In the long therm of the campaign, at least in my short experience, the 2 handed weapons have a significant more fire power (surge wise) than the 1 handed ones, even considering the extra Y die, so I think his hero ability will just be obsolete, whats a good thing to think. I may be wrong tho... Can't think a vicious one handed now to compare with a grinding axe, ironbound glaive or even the standard glaive (the dragontooth hammer seems ok but... :huh:)

 

2 - The problem with the "targeting" persists... What is to target a space? It means with an attack? Or It means when you spend a MP/move X spaces willing to reach that target space? Like the 1st interpretation from cursain:

 

Cursain, on 03 Feb 2016 - 7:26 PM, said:
Bull Rush is absolutely insane.  Imagine the Dark Minotaur being hit with Dash, and then moving four from a "Move" action.......8 additional red power dice potential?  Am I reading that wrong?

 

 

 

Indalecio made a good point when bolded "each time" on the bull rush phrasing.

 

Wasn't the developer intent to make the attack stronger as the Minotaur had space run, so the gore attack could achieve it's full power? So, the farthest the target is, the devastating would be the attack? Of course the attack pool needed to come back to the standard one after the bull rush attack is made, even if the mino is targeted with a frenzy/flurry OL card.

 

One more time, my apologies for the typing.

Edited by Dommus

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1) Target space refers exclusively to the space containing a target figure chosen during step 1 of combat.

 

2) I'm really, really puzzled by all of this confusion over "Bull Rush." I read it relatively plainly as:

 

"If attacking a space that was adjacent to this monster at the start of his activation, attack pool = blue/red. If attacking a space that was not adjacent, attack pool = blue/red/red." 

 

In any other interpretation (the extra die persisting for some amount of time) there would have to be a clause instructing when the attack pool was reduced back to the printed value, which there is not. 

Edited by Zaltyre

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There is clearly no other plausible interpretation than the one you are making, Zaltyre. There is no shadow of doubt this extra dice cannot possibly persist between attacks.

 

The reason why I raised this question is that every ability in the game is regulated by rather strict rules statements which tell when such abilities trigger and when their effect effectively stops. General rules prevail, then eventual exceptions are handled on a one to one basis. So despite the fact we still remain in the realm of common sense to provide an answer to this very question, I just find surprising that FFG formulated the Bull Rush ability in a way that could suggest that it could be cumulative, for lack of indication of the opposite.

 

I am also considering this from the perspective of new players who might not have the capability to refer to other abilities to deduce the ruling of that particular ability. I do think the wording is poor.

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I agree that 'when' or 'whenever' would be even more clear than 'each time,' but I don't feel it's really necessary because (as you mentioned) the alternative is so powerful it's almost not worth considering.

The situation may also be helped by looking to the combat steps and realzing that during each first step of combat, the minotaur's dice pool is redefined as what is printed on his card, and then the ability adds to that (not to his last attack pool.)

Edited by Zaltyre

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Hey look, it's Steelhorns. I know there were people wanting to use him again.

 

They announce these things though quicker then they release them. Will all these H&M packs, it would be great to get some new classes. 

 

New classes would be awesome indeed.  They are top of my want list for new descent content.  Now that all the 1E monsters are done, maybe we can get some Hero and Class packs to finish out the heroes.

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I agree that a little more variation on the hero classes would be welcome. I´m tired of facing the same combinations all over again :)

But if new classes are worth playing compared to well-established ones then it means it would be quite powerful by design, therefore I would also plead for more OL cards to broaden his choices as well.

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I agree that a little more variation on the hero classes would be welcome. I´m tired of facing the same combinations all over again :)

But if new classes are worth playing compared to well-established ones then it means it would be quite powerful by design, therefore I would also plead for more OL cards to broaden his choices as well.

Maybe a new mechanic in favor of the OL? Legends of Andor, a co-op game with a progression marker like the 'Doom and Fate track', has a limitation of monsters you can kill (because this would increase the Doom translated to Descent terms). The tainted cards from MoB could also be expanded. When players start a campaign they can opt to include these elements. like the heroes can use One Fist with the Knight class and the OL gets an advantage the group agreed on. There are many ways FFG could come up with idea's to make it harder for the heroes.

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Got a response- One Fist CANNOT spend MP gained from the trident during his feat.

Good to know Zaltyre, thanks! Did they elaborate as to why? Would be nice to get a general ruling out of it.

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Got a response- One Fist CANNOT spend MP gained from the trident during his feat.

Good to know Zaltyre, thanks! Did they elaborate as to why? Would be nice to get a general ruling out of it.

 

It might be helpful for me to post my question, too:

 

Rules Question:
A lively debate has begun concerning One Fist's heroic feat: If he has the "Trident" (surge: gain 2 MP) and gains a surge during the execution of his feat, would he be able to spend those movement points immediately (during step 4) and then subsequently perform another attack (assuming the first attack defeats the target?) The FAQ seems to make clear that he must spend the MP immediately or not at all, but is spending them immediately an option? Thanks!
 
That is, he is mandated when receiving MP to either spend them immediately, or not at all (assuming he is receiving MP outside his turn.) However, gaining the movement points (according to the ruling) doesn't automatically enable him to spend them immediately (he can't just interrupt his attack to spend them.) Since he can't spend them immediately, they're gone (and they're gone anyway when he becomes KO.)
 
If it were during One Fist's turn, the answer would be the same, just simpler: One Fist can only spend movement points "during his turn" (in other words, not interrupting any other action, including his feat) so he wouldn't be able to spend the MP until after his feat resolved, at which point he'd be defeated (so no opportunity to spend them there, either.)
 
EDIT: See post #68
Edited by Zaltyre

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That is, he is mandated when receiving MP to either spend them immediately, or not at all (assuming he is receiving MP outside his turn.) However, gaining the movement points (according to the ruling) doesn't automatically enable him to spend them immediately (he can't just interrupt his attack to spend them.) Since he can't spend them immediately, they're gone (and they're gone anyway when he becomes KO.)

 

After seeking a more detailed explanation for the ruling, what I said above is not exactly correct. One Fist is not prohibited from spending the MP because it is not his turn. He is prohibited from spending the MP because he would be interrupting the resolution of one game effect (his heroic feat, not able to be interrupted) with another (spending movement points.) More specifically,

1) He can't interrupt the feat itself to spend movement points (he can't spend them right there during the spend surges step)

2) If he defeats a monster, he immediately performs another attack- no room in there to spend MP as his feat is still in progress.

3) If he didn't defeat a monster, his feat resolves and he is immediately defeated- no room to spend MP there, either.

 

Since there is no valid window (even an immediate window) in which to spend the MP before he is KO, he ends up not being able to spend them.

 

This is different from say, "Nimble" or Syndrael's heroic feat, where there is a valid period in which to spend the points (for "Nimble," the monster's movement is interrupted, and for Syndrael, the other hero performing a move action is part of the resolution of the feat.)

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Have to agree with Indalecio regarding One Arm. There are abilities that early on, can add green die to an attack pool or replace die with different colors. But adding a yellow? Monsters only have one die usually.

I grant that it isn't every attack, but a disciple has the ability to give a yellow to anyone pretty early on with "divine fury."

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One Fis +1Y. Any act 1 melee weapon: BR. Disciple Divine Fury: +1 Y. Beastmaster Wolf (Savage I think) +1G. Apothecary Potent Remedies (if I remember correctly)+1G.

That makes One Fist roll BRYYGG. That many die after two quests will even make act II Mirklace say: Daaaamn!

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One Fis +1Y. Any act 1 melee weapon: BR. Disciple Divine Fury: +1 Y. Beastmaster Wolf (Savage I think) +1G. Apothecary Potent Remedies (if I remember correctly)+1G.

That makes One Fist roll BRYYGG. That many die after two quests will even make act II Mirklace say: Daaaamn!

And BRYGG can be achieved with that combo by anybody else.

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One Fis +1Y. Any act 1 melee weapon: BR. Disciple Divine Fury: +1 Y. Beastmaster Wolf (Savage I think) +1G. Apothecary Potent Remedies (if I remember correctly)+1G.
That makes One Fist roll BRYYGG. That many die after two quests will even make act II Mirklace say: Daaaamn!

 

This assumes you have two healer archetypes... and one warrior... so which archetype are you giving up to get that massive attack? Scout or mage?

 

If the OL plays his cards right (see what I did there?) he could stomp all over you because you either don't have crowd control, or you can't get search tokens.

 

There are many ways to get BIG die pool in descent... I had one using an apothecary with the bow of bone.  What the heroes need to figure out is when enough is enough.  You don't need that many dice to destroy most act 1 monsters, so maybe spread the focus a bit?

 

:P

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I'm not advocating nor predicting a rise in parties like the one I just mentioned. Just explained how One Fist could get a massive amount (the greatest amount) of die after two quests in a regular campaign:) And betting everything on all out attacks can, of course, never be a good idea because of the dreaded X.

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