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Elrath'

How balanced the Return to Hoth campaign is

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Huh, I hadn't noticed that Leia's ability just says "a friendly figure" instead of "another". So yeah, I guess she can use it on herself to attack twice. But I don't see where you're getting a third attack per activation, she doesn't have Assault or anything else that overrides the regular one-action-to-attack rule.

Hmm...guess that's true (reread; misinterpreted the rules). Well two is still pretty good!

~D

Edited by HoodieDM

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As others have said, the problem is Subversive Tactics, it breaks the game by locking down the heroes primary resource. Imagine how broken it would be if the heroes reduced the Empire's threat by 2-3 every time they attacked, that's what ST does to the rebels, it turns them into skirmish cards.

That's one of my concerns with the new Leah piece. She locks down activations, and that's, in my thinking, equivalent to subversive tactics.

 

I think you need to read her card more closely. She doesn't exhaust deployment cards, she exhausts imperial class cards. Otherwise she would be way overpowered :D

 

http://boardwars.eu/wave-5-ally-pack-leia-organa/

 

http://boardwars.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Leia-Organa-Campaign.jpg

 

 

That means, if she starts each round she can exhaust 2 class cards before the IP even has a chance of acting?

As the IP player, I would be so sad to see that happen through a whole campaign.

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As others have said, the problem is Subversive Tactics, it breaks the game by locking down the heroes primary resource. Imagine how broken it would be if the heroes reduced the Empire's threat by 2-3 every time they attacked, that's what ST does to the rebels, it turns them into skirmish cards.

That's one of my concerns with the new Leah piece. She locks down activations, and that's, in my thinking, equivalent to subversive tactics.

 

I think you need to read her card more closely. She doesn't exhaust deployment cards, she exhausts imperial class cards. Otherwise she would be way overpowered :D

 

http://boardwars.eu/wave-5-ally-pack-leia-organa/

 

http://boardwars.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Leia-Organa-Campaign.jpg

 

 

That means, if she starts each round she can exhaust 2 class cards before the IP even has a chance of acting?

As the IP player, I would be so sad to see that happen through a whole campaign.

 

 

 

No - its a surge ability, can only be used once per attack (and she can only attack once per activation), and only if she has surges...  which is likely considering her yellow, yellow, blue attack dice, but still...

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Based on the wording of her special action ability, it does seem plausible that she could use it on herself to order herself to attack a second time, triggering her surge each time.

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Based on the wording of her special action ability, it does seem plausible that she could use it on herself to order herself to attack a second time, triggering her surge each time.

I didn't realize that... but it sounds similar to the issue with the officers where they made the errata 'another's figure.

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I'm four games in, playing Precision Tactics against Loku and Verena, here are my thoughts:

 

1. Record: 2-2.

 

2. Loku and Verena are great, but Verena is especially a pain in the butt to deal with. 

 

3. Royal Guards are so much better now, and they actually feel like they guard other figures.

 

4. The new HKs are spendy, but fun if you keep them safe.

 

5. The campaign feels balanced, is the most fun out of the three, and it has a lot of variety in it's events.

 

6. Leia and the Echo Base Troopers are really good.  My wife never brought in allies before, but Echo Base Troopers are an auto-include for her.

 

7. Threat missions are fun to do, but fiddly to manage.  I hope they don't add additional types of missions.

 

8. Snowtroopers are great and so are Wampas.

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We're three games in, I (as the Imperial player) have won two of them... and winning two out of any three is the best I've ever managed so far, in any campaign!

 

I can't speak as to whether the whole campaign is balanced in favour of the Imperial player. Certainly, the first mission didn't feel like it was - I have no idea how I was supposed to win that one. But then, the second and third missions (both Threat missions - we didn't have time for a story mission in game 3 so played a shorter side mission instead), my Heroes thought they were heavily balanced in favour of me.

 

I'm playing the Military Might class. Subversive Tactics is horrible. It's not even a question of whether it's powerful - it's just not fun. "I've saved my XP for three games to level up to get this skill I really wanted!!!" "Yeah, well, I've got Subversive Tactics so I'm going to stop you using it, trolololololol." It's pretty rare that I'd say something like this, but an Imperial player who deliberately takes ST, knowing what it does (as opposed to, say, this being their first campaign and picking it at random) is a ****. I get that you can play Imperial Assault with a competitive mindset even in campaign, but part of the social contract of boardgames / wargames is that we're all doing this to collectively enjoy ourselves. That doesn't have to mean throwing the game to let the Heroes win, but it does mean allowing the Heroes to act like heroes, or else what's the point?

 

Oh - and anyone taking an hour to complete a turn (wait, seriously!?!?) is not a "strategic master" - a genuine strategic master would see the best options pretty quickly and execute them efficiently. Most of our missions, except the really big story ones, are done in two hours or so, and that includes mission setup and the campaign phase (not to mention a fair amount of chatting and making geeky jokes). An hour per turn... oh god. I'd be bored out of my skull by turn two and wouldn't be very inclined to play again. If your Heroes are taking that long between them, encourage them to be decisive, if that doesn't work bring out a turn timer, and if that doesn't work... well, I dunno. I wouldn't bother playing, personally. YMMV.

Edited by Bitterman

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Huh, I hadn't noticed that Leia's ability just says "a friendly figure" instead of "another". So yeah, I guess she can use it on herself to attack twice. But I don't see where you're getting a third attack per activation, she doesn't have Assault or anything else that overrides the regular one-action-to-attack rule.

 

 I hope this is a printing error - makes her really OP.

(as mentioned: Activate her first and you have the chance to exhaust 2 Imperial Class Cards)

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Huh, I hadn't noticed that Leia's ability just says "a friendly figure" instead of "another". So yeah, I guess she can use it on herself to attack twice. But I don't see where you're getting a third attack per activation, she doesn't have Assault or anything else that overrides the regular one-action-to-attack rule.

 

 I hope this is a printing error - makes her really OP.

(as mentioned: Activate her first and you have the chance to exhaust 2 Imperial Class Cards)

 

 

Yeah seems really OP for the cost. 2 Attacks + 1 non-attack action per turn, white defense die, automatic surge cancel, recover 2, +2 damage for a surge 3 attack dice and 5 speed. Additionally to that she has the surge ability to exhaust imperial cards, as if all the stats weren't strong enough. She is much more powerfull than any hero in the game at least until the second third of the campaign and only costs 8 threat. How is that even comparable to Chewie, Han or Luke from the core set? She is much better than any of them and costs nearly half of what they cost. Would be kind of balanced if she costs at least 12 threat.

 

Also I really feel FFG should stop breaking IA by introducing content that messes with the player's abilities and/or hard limiting their options, because there exists nothing to play around it. No one enjoys playing with or against Subversive Tactics, but at least it's optional. Lea works similar, but I bet she's mandatory for quite a bunch of stroy missions. I guess I wouldn't mind so much if her skill is more like "exhaust a class card unless the IP player pays 1threat" or the like. At least give players the chance to do something against it, even if it involves spending resources, because then at least we feel like we choose that outcome and not are just denied our options and potential decisions by taking out central mechanisms of the game (like abilities for ST and class cards for Lea).

Edited by DAMaz

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Well, to be fair, I don't know anyone who thinks Han or Chewie is *ever* a worthwhile ally for campaign Rebels because of their high cost, and even Luke is borderline at 10 threat. I agree that Leia ordering herself to get two 3-die attacks and two class card exhaustions per round is probably too strong for 8 threat, but if we assume that's an oversight and she shouldn't be able to order herself, then I'm not sure she's overpowered at 8. She's absolutely stronger than Luke, Han and Chewie, but frankly she ought to be, because they're pretty *under*powered for their threat cost.

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Well, to be fair, I don't know anyone who thinks Han or Chewie is *ever* a worthwhile ally for campaign Rebels because of their high cost, and even Luke is borderline at 10 threat. I agree that Leia ordering herself to get two 3-die attacks and two class card exhaustions per round is probably too strong for 8 threat, but if we assume that's an oversight and she shouldn't be able to order herself, then I'm not sure she's overpowered at 8. She's absolutely stronger than Luke, Han and Chewie, but frankly she ought to be, because they're pretty *under*powered for their threat cost.

 

FFG just released an errata where they fixed the imperial officers being capable of doing that (which I never saw as really problematic in campaign play), yet they didn't change Leia's card which had the excact same wording. As they changed a lot of "hero" to "rebel figure", I can't imagine they forgot about the wording on Leia's card, since using that ability on yourself is very powerfull and imo not something so insignificant that no-one in play-testing did not think of it.

Edited by DAMaz

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Return to Hoth was already in development when the errata got released, so the wording was already set.   Either its meant to be like that, or they'll release the change with their next FAQ release.   They might also be waiting to see how it plays out...

 

Bear in mind that Leia is a unique character and can't be spamed like Officers...  So that might be another reason for it...

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I think Chewie is a beast at 15. He rolls a black and white die. He's rolling 3 attack dice. Has protector (which even if he just keep him in the back he benefits the whole group) and can do damage twice (with slam). I'll take Chewie against an elite stormtrooper + reg web-engineer or reg royal guard + reg stormtrooper or even two groups of trandoshan hunters. But that's just me *shrug*.

~D

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I think Chewie is a beast at 15. He rolls a black and white die. He's rolling 3 attack dice. Has protector (which even if he just keep him in the back he benefits the whole group) and can do damage twice (with slam). I'll take Chewie against an elite stormtrooper + reg web-engineer or reg royal guard + reg stormtrooper or even two groups of trandoshan hunters. But that's just me *shrug*.~D

Do you want ATSTs?

Cause that's how you get ATSTs.

Seriously though, Chewbacca is a mean mammajamma.

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I think Chewie is a beast at 15. He rolls a black and white die. He's rolling 3 attack dice. Has protector (which even if he just keep him in the back he benefits the whole group) and can do damage twice (with slam). I'll take Chewie against an elite stormtrooper + reg web-engineer or reg royal guard + reg stormtrooper or even two groups of trandoshan hunters. But that's just me *shrug*.~D

Do you want ATSTs?

Cause that's how you get ATSTs.

Seriously though, Chewbacca is a mean mammajamma.

 

 problem is, the Imperial Player needs to chose her open groups before the rebels decide what ally to bring :(

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I think Chewie is a beast at 15. He rolls a black and white die. He's rolling 3 attack dice. Has protector (which even if he just keep him in the back he benefits the whole group) and can do damage twice (with slam). I'll take Chewie against an elite stormtrooper + reg web-engineer or reg royal guard + reg stormtrooper or even two groups of trandoshan hunters. But that's just me *shrug*.

~D

 

Had the allies take Chewie twice on me.  I walked a squad of troopers around a corner and executed him both times.  Then I proceeded to brutally slaughter the rebels with the insane boatload of points he gave me.

 

Moral of the story, if you want to lose spectacularly, take massively overpointed allies.

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I think Chewie is a beast at 15. He rolls a black and white die. He's rolling 3 attack dice. Has protector (which even if he just keep him in the back he benefits the whole group) and can do damage twice (with slam). I'll take Chewie against an elite stormtrooper + reg web-engineer or reg royal guard + reg stormtrooper or even two groups of trandoshan hunters. But that's just me *shrug*.~D

Do you want ATSTs?

Cause that's how you get ATSTs.

Seriously though, Chewbacca is a mean mammajamma.

 problem is, the Imperial Player needs to chose her open groups before the rebels decide what ally to bring :(
LoL, yeah but instead of the AtSt i take RGC if able. Sometimes Ill take a rTrandoshan and RRoyal Guard or bank some threat. Last time though since I wanted them to win, I took 2 rStormtrooper groups and they took care of them pretty easy.

But they also have MHD19 and hes got Bacta Radiator. So as a group, they get +Protector on attacks and MHD is healing 1 strain & damage so as a group, theyre pretty effective to cluster together.

~D

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Having just finished the campaign (with a narrow loss) the campaign felt reasonably balanced to me. I was worried it would run out of control towards the rebels initially, and then there was a worry that I would get run away wins, but in the end it was actually quite balanced (more so than the previous campaign), and there was probably a turn or maybe even a couple of activation in the balance that determined the win for the rebels.

 

Going to admit that it is a little depressing to see your Imperial stuff die so quickly towards the end of the campaign though... God rebel heroes get ridiculous towards the end.

Edited by borithan

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