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Discussion about conditions

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Most recently in the "tips and tricks" thread, but in other places too I have seen people mention how vital getting a harmful condition on an enemy figure is, particularly stun.

 

In my experience, that simply is not the case. The games I have played, getting a single condition put on my figures barely warrants notice, when you activate you clear the condition and if you are a melee combatant you are probably already adjacent to an enemy to attack, and if you have a ranged attack you have LoS to someone. In absolutely no game I have played have I ever found a single harmful condition to impact the game significantly. And judging by the degree to which my opponents generally opt for any other surge abilities when they have a choice, I am not alone in this opinion at my store.

 

So, I'm just wondering if anyone else feels this way, and I am willing to listen to the chorus that is going to pop up and say how wrong I am.

 

Now, managing to land multiple harmful condition on a single figure, THAT is a big deal, but without Dengar it also isn't easy.

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The worth of Stun (or any other harmful condition) depends on the victim.

 

Two extreme examples:

If you shot the last Stormtrooper of a unit and you can either apply +2 damage to kill him and score the points or stun him, then go for the damage.

If you shot an expensive brawler like the Royal Guard Champion and he has little to no damage, but is not in melee range at the moment, then stun him. He can't attack this turn, which is great.

 

My Saboteurs stunning a Royal Guard Champion three times in one game won me a match in the last tournament.

 

 

Maybe this is another reason, why expensive figures are not that good. Any harmful condition applied to an expensive figure has a much greater impact on the game.

Edited by DerBaer

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Most recently in the "tips and tricks" thread, but in other places too I have seen people mention how vital getting a harmful condition on an enemy figure is, particularly stun.

 

In my experience, that simply is not the case. The games I have played, getting a single condition put on my figures barely warrants notice, when you activate you clear the condition and if you are a melee combatant you are probably already adjacent to an enemy to attack, and if you have a ranged attack you have LoS to someone. In absolutely no game I have played have I ever found a single harmful condition to impact the game significantly. And judging by the degree to which my opponents generally opt for any other surge abilities when they have a choice, I am not alone in this opinion at my store.

 

So, I'm just wondering if anyone else feels this way, and I am willing to listen to the chorus that is going to pop up and say how wrong I am.

 

Now, managing to land multiple harmful condition on a single figure, THAT is a big deal, but without Dengar it also isn't easy.

In your examples you've "loaded" the situations so heavily. So in those examples (melee guy in range and ranged guy with LoS) conditions like Stun would have very little effect. But that's not (or should not) always be the case and certainly will not be the case when playing against a more experienced player who knows the strengths of his units with stun effects. He/she will 9/10 move in, attack and hopefully do a Stun, and then move out of range/LoS which basically will leave the Stunned unit very vulnerable and certainly very less useful for your plan.

And as mentioned by DerBaer it can be even more devastating on your named/unique units like leaders and such

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I think there's a big difference between Stun and all the other conditions.

 

Most games last 3-4 rounds right? 

 

So for each figure that lives until the end of the game (not many!) they get 6-8 actions over the course of the game.

 

So if you stun something you've taken away a good proportion of it's actions. 

 

Now if it's a slow melee figure, like Vader, a Wookiee, and you've positioned yourself correctly - you've also taken away it's attack, as it has de-stun and then move. 

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 So in those examples (melee guy in range and ranged guy with LoS) conditions like Stun would have very little effect. But that's not (or should not) always be the case 

 

But it is typically the case. You can't move into LoS, attack to stun and then move out of LoS with one activation (not without help, at least). And if it isn't the case when the figure gets stunned, just wait to activate him until it IS the case. In scenarios where VPs from objectives aren't a big deal the enemy is going to want to hammer your big scary stunned guy, cause otherwise he can't win, or in scenarios where the objectives ARE important the big scary stunned guy is probably near the objectives and the enemy has to approach anyway.

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You are talking to tournament players. A skirmish ends after 55 minutes there. This is like 3-4 rounds. You don't have to kill the opponent's whole squad, you just have to score more points than him.

 

In that meta, putting Stun on a Vader or a Royal Guard Champion 3-4 times absolutely wins games.

 

In that meta, your opponent definitively can win, without to hammer your big scary guy.

 

And I assure you, a good player can move a figure (e.g. an eSab) into LoS, attack to stun and then move out of LoS with one activation without help.

Edited by DerBaer

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 So in those examples (melee guy in range and ranged guy with LoS) conditions like Stun would have very little effect. But that's not (or should not) always be the case 

 

But it is typically the case. You can't move into LoS, attack to stun and then move out of LoS with one activation (not without help, at least). And if it isn't the case when the figure gets stunned, just wait to activate him until it IS the case. In scenarios where VPs from objectives aren't a big deal the enemy is going to want to hammer your big scary stunned guy, cause otherwise he can't win, or in scenarios where the objectives ARE important the big scary stunned guy is probably near the objectives and the enemy has to approach anyway.

 

 

NM, it is nice/good if Stun isn't a big deal in your meta

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You are talking to tournament players. A skirmish ends after 55 minutes there. This is like 3-4 rounds.

 

Hmm... Hadn't considered the time limit for tourney games changing things. Though I would not have said that our 6-8 round games typically last longer than an hour anyway. I'd have said around 5-10 minutes a round, I'll have to pay more attention to that next time I play.

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Yeah in the tourney I played in the 55 minute rounds really make a huge difference in how you have to play. I don't know that I like that short of a time limit. I feel like it arbitrarily cuts out a huge part of the game. Maybe games will go further in rounds as more of the people at tourneys move faster.

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Yeah in the tourney I played in the 55 minute rounds really make a huge difference in how you have to play. I don't know that I like that short of a time limit. I feel like it arbitrarily cuts out a huge part of the game. Maybe games will go further in rounds as more of the people at tourneys move faster.

 

I'm an x-wing player and naturally, i compare both games. In x-wing you plan your moves before activation phase so theres not much thinking while activating. You also control an average of 3-4 units (unless you play swarms). In Imperial assault you have 5-6 activations - each with possibly multiple units. In addition, situation changes immensely between each activation so you have to plan during and after each of your opponent activations. This takes a lot of time. 

 

X-wing is a lot faster game and has a round time of 70-75 minutes while imperial assault has 55 minutes. Where's the logic in that? I hate finishing a tournament match after 3 rounds when full game takes usually around 7-8

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I love the time limit. You can play more games in less time.

I get that, I just feel like they're not satisfyingly full games. Only one of the tournament games I played did I feel like it was close to over by the time limit and not worth finishing. The others were kind of like sitting down to eat a steak, getting maybe half way through and someone saying, "Well times up. Move on to the next course." And takes away that steak. Don't get me wrong I think there should be a time limit. But I feel like currently it's too short. Even twenty more minutes would go a long way.

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More often than not, I feel like my games are more or less close to over by the time limit and not worth finishing anyways.

 

To me, the difference between using and not using this time limit is, that you need to build up pressure from your first activation on. It's a faster, more aggressive game. Even if I'm not at a tournament, I use the tournament rules, because I like them so much.

 

Don't get me wrong: I understand your point and respect your opinion. I sometimes love to play 2 hours beer & bretzels games, too. But for competitive play I love the time limit. And I have to admit, I truly prefer competitive play ...

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Honestly, I would be happy to never see Stun on another figure again.  Bleed is already strong, and Weaken is good for the game.  But not Stun.

 

So are you saying Stun is bad for the game? In what way? 

 

- Broken?

- Too powerful?

- Not powerful enough? 

- Boring?

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More often than not, I feel like my games are more or less close to over by the time limit and not worth finishing anyways.

 

To me, the difference between using and not using this time limit is, that you need to build up pressure from your first activation on. It's a faster, more aggressive game. Even if I'm not at a tournament, I use the tournament rules, because I like them so much.

 

Don't get me wrong: I understand your point and respect your opinion. I sometimes love to play 2 hours beer & bretzels games, too. But for competitive play I love the time limit. And I have to admit, I truly prefer competitive play ...

 

Time limit is a must, agree, but i feel 55 minutes is a bit too low for this game. More intense games only manage to fit 2-3 rounds in the time limit and the game is often decided by a couple of bad/good dice rolls. (the shorter the game - the more impact dice have)

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I haven't seen it mentioned yet that a stunned figure cannot be ordered to move by another figure. I find that particularly useful in trying to combat those officer heavy lists that rely on Order to scoot RGs all over the board.

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I haven't seen it mentioned yet that a stunned figure cannot be ordered to move by another figure. I find that particularly useful in trying to combat those officer heavy lists that rely on Order to scoot RGs all over the board.

 

Yup. Golden rules, RRG p.2:

 If a card or mission uses the word cannot , that effect is absolute

and cannot be overridden by other effects.

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I haven't seen it mentioned yet that a stunned figure cannot be ordered to move by another figure. I find that particularly useful in trying to combat those officer heavy lists that rely on Order to scoot RGs all over the board.

 

Yup. Golden rules, RRG p.2:

 If a card or mission uses the word cannot , that effect is absolute

and cannot be overridden by other effects.

 

 

However, Chewbacca could slap/push (or rather Slam) the stunned trooper halfway across the hallway if he so desires ;-)

 

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A stunned melee character would also be unable to use a parting blow command card.

 

Would stun keep a bantha rider from being able to use beast tamer to take movement points at the beginning of it's activation, then use an action to unstun, then use the movement points, then last action use trample?

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A stunned figure can do the action "Perform a move" as it does not leave its space through this action, it only gains movement points in its pool. 

So yes, a stunned creature can do the "perform a move " part of beast tamer. It has to discard the stun to actually leave the space but you can do the order 

Beast Tamer -> Perform the Move

Action 1 -> Discard Stun

Then move around and have your 2nd action. 

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