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How well do flame weapons work on deamons?

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How well do flame weapons work on deamons? Last adventure the players used a flamer on a deamon, and it kicked his ass. Did I miss an immunity to flame that deamons have or do they need willpower rolls and everything like under the flamer rules?

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They do not need Willpower rolls if they have From Beyond (no fear, no worries about fire, etc.).  Also keep in mind the Daemonic trait actually provides extra defense against all damage that isn't Sanctified; I'd apply that to Flame damage unless the party gets their promethium blessed.  

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Not really...  Assuming Daemonic (3) and a total Toughness/Unnatural Toughness bonus of 5, you can only do 1-2 damage to a Daemon due to them being on fire per turn if you're lucky.  The Fatigue might set in given time, but I doubt it'd become relevant in combat.  I'm also iffy on if Daemons can suffer Fatigue in the first place.  They don't freak out over being on fire, which is the other big thing.  

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Not really...  Assuming Daemonic (3) and a total Toughness/Unnatural Toughness bonus of 5, you can only do 1-2 damage to a Daemon due to them being on fire per turn if you're lucky.  The Fatigue might set in given time, but I doubt it'd become relevant in combat.  I'm also iffy on if Daemons can suffer Fatigue in the first place.  They don't freak out over being on fire, which is the other big thing.  

 

Daemons aren't immune to fatigue RAW unless they have the Stuff of Nightmares trait.

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It's not the damage that makes flamers vs. demons dangerous.  It's the lockdown effect.  One can argue that demons have high agility.  Some of them do, but unnatural agility only really really fiddles initiative.  Very high dodge + agility is the real force to be reckoned with against a flamer.  Most demons don't have high dodge.  Once on fire, said demons are then consumed with spending full turns doing -20 agility tests to try and put themselves out, while the canny party keeps reigniting them.  The idea of them also having to make willpower tests to put themselves out has also been debated a few times.  The general logic is they don't have to do it.

 

Some fixes for this have been suggested over time, but overall flamers are your go to weapon for dealing with demons and any other big nasty.  They are massively disproportionate in their tier.  I really don't know why anyone would use a gun anymore.  Fantasy flight should have limited the ammo per clip.  

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Dodge doesn't work on flamers, you roll base Agility. You need a talent from Enemies Without to Dodge it.

 

Let me go thru the process because it confused me before.  I then had a bunch of people explain the full process.

 

1.  There is a dodge.  This is the same for any template/spray weapon.  You have to have the Agility bonus to get out of the area though.  

2.  There is the agility test to see if you are hit.

3.  There is the agility test to see if you are on fire.  

 

'Leaping Dodge' from Enemies Without just lets you use your Dodge Stat in place of your Agility.  It would help a high level dodge built character.   

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Let me go thru the process because it confused me before.  I then had a bunch of people explain the full process.

 

1.  There is a dodge.  This is the same for any template/spray weapon.  You have to have the Agility bonus to get out of the area though.  

2.  There is the agility test to see if you are hit.

3.  There is the agility test to see if you are on fire.  

 

'Leaping Dodge' from Enemies Without just lets you use your Dodge Stat in place of your Agility.  It would help a high level dodge built character.

1. Flamer fires.

2. Target rolls on base Agility to move out of the way (as per 'Spray' weapon trait). They need their AgB to also exceed the area affected. If they have the 'Leaping Dodge' talent, they may use their Dodge Skill (including any modifiers) for this instead.

3. If the target is hit, roll and apply damage.

4. Character rolls an Agility test to see if they remain on fire (as per 'Flame' weapon trait).

5. If they are still on fire, at the end of the round, they take 1d10 (E) damage (ignoring Armour) and 1 Fatigue.

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Fog, Daemons don't need to make the Willpower test to ignore the fire.  They have From Beyond.  They can continue to do whatever it was they were doing, or use their new state to their advantage (getting hugs from flaming Daemons is even worse than hugs from normal Daemons).  

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I note that there are no rules that say the dodge test isn't allowed. Just that the AG test happens instead of the BS test. So I'd say that the RAW only replaces the BS test with an AG test. Everything else in the attack sequence remains the same:

 

Declare - Character declares how they are making their attack.

Roll to hit - Test to see if the weapon hits. BS for ranged, WS for melee weapons, AG of target for spray weapons. 

Dodge - If test 2 was a hit, target gets an opportunity to use dodge. Spray weapons have AOE, so the rules for dodging AOE apply.

Roll damage - Roll damage and apply it and any extra effects. Flame is one of those extra effects.

 

The only other change I make is to move the damage roll of a spray weapon into the declare step because the damage roll is the jam roll. So I feel it's best to get it out of the way before making other rolls as it can render them irrelevant.

 

 

 

I think I might do a house rule, where if the toughness is to high to be damaged by the flame you don't need to make the willpower roll. 

How about: If a character who is on fire does not take damage from being on fire then the flames go out at the end of their turn.

 

 

 They have From Beyond. 

 

 

 

from beyondSome creatures are free from the limitations of normal physiology,
having emerged from the impossible realm of the Warp or perhaps
using bodies forged from cold metal and circuitry. Their minds are
beyond the petty frailties and precarious sanity of a mortal mind.
Such a creature is immune to Fear, Pinning, Insanity points, and
psychic powers used to cloud, control, or delude its mind.

I see no mention of immunity to fire.

 

 

Also, this forums post editor doesn't work well with copy-paste.

Edited by Bilateralrope

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1. Flamer fires.

2. Target rolls on base Agility to move out of the way (as per 'Spray' weapon trait). They need their AgB to also exceed the area affected. If they have the 'Leaping Dodge' talent, they may use their Dodge Skill (including any modifiers) for this instead.

3. If the target is hit, roll and apply damage.

4. Character rolls an Agility test to see if they remain on fire (as per 'Flame' weapon trait).

5. If they are still on fire, at the end of the round, they take 1d10 (E) damage (ignoring Armour) and 1 Fatigue. 

 

 

No.

 

1. Flamer fires

2. Since there is no BS test to hit with flamer, as per spray stat, it's the target that make a pure AG roll to see if he's hit. If he's got special talent, he can use dodge stat instead of pure AG for this.

3. If the character's hit, he can test dodge as with any other attack to evade it.

4. If the character is hit, roll damage and such.

5. Character rolls AG test to see if he's on fire.

6. If he's on fire, he's screwed, he can try with willpower test to be calm enough to try to extinguish flames, which isn't won. 

 

 

 

How about: If a character who is on fire does not take damage from being on fire then the flames go out at the end of their turn.

 

 

Legit. Anyways, the chances that the flame quality gets to kill a daemonic creature with such high toughness are pretty low.

 

 

 

I see no mention of immunity to fire

 

That's indeed not clearly stated. I would consider that a creature that is immune to fear, pinning and insanity is indeed immune to be panicking while on fire.

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I've been saying that the entire time, thank you Alexel.  It is hard to panic when you can't feel fear.  Thus, fire can't incapacitate a Daemon.  It might hurt them a little, maybe (like I said earlier, Daemonic (3) and a total Toughness/Unnatural Toughness of 5 means there's a 20% chance of any damage being dealt by the fire).  

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Fog, Daemons don't need to make the Willpower test to ignore the fire.  They have From Beyond.  They can continue to do whatever it was they were doing, or use their new state to their advantage (getting hugs from flaming Daemons is even worse than hugs from normal Daemons).  

 

That's debatable.  I'd like to see a proper ruling from fantasy flight on the issue.  Currently, I don't make them take the psychology tests, but I do make them try and put themselves out if they are on fire.

 

I note that there are no rules that say the dodge test isn't allowed. Just that the AG test happens instead of the BS test. So I'd say that the RAW only replaces the BS test with an AG test. Everything else in the attack sequence remains the same:

 

Declare - Character declares how they are making their attack.

Roll to hit - Test to see if the weapon hits. BS for ranged, WS for melee weapons, AG of target for spray weapons. 

Dodge - If test 2 was a hit, target gets an opportunity to use dodge. Spray weapons have AOE, so the rules for dodging AOE apply.

Roll damage - Roll damage and apply it and any extra effects. Flame is one of those extra effects.

 

This is also my opinion of RAW.  Perhaps these are not RAI, but I do my best to use RAW as much as possible to avoid confusing new players and creating complex issues.  I should really flip steps 1 & 2 in my process, because It could save a player a dodge.

 

 

That's indeed not clearly stated. I would consider that a creature that is immune to fear, pinning and insanity is indeed immune to be panicking while on fire.

 

 

'I would consider'.  Sounds like you are making house rules.  Be very clear about house rules vs. RAW.

Edited by fog1234

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The problem with holding steadfastly to "RAW" is that books tends to have inconsistencies and errors which, going by your own desire to try and not confuse players as much as possible, would only exacerbate the confusion. For instance, the Tome of Decay forgot to include agility stats for daemon engine creation. By your own morals, would you simply not let the players Daemon Engines move at all? I'd certainly hope not, because that sounds awful.

 

As much as a I love FFG and the stuff they put out, their work in Star Wars, 40k, and other RPGs show that their material is apt for logical conclusions and technical houserulings.

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'I would consider'.  Sounds like you are making house rules.  Be very clear about house rules vs. RAW.

 

No. I would consider means I would consider.

 

Not "I would create another rule".

 

 

Look at them, see what they mean. I would consider that they are immune to being on fire, which is tehcnically fear reflexes/Instinctive survival behaviours, to which the "fluff" part of from beyond describes them to be pretty much immune.

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The problem with holding steadfastly to "RAW" is that books tends to have inconsistencies and errors which, going by your own desire to try and not confuse players as much as possible, would only exacerbate the confusion. For instance, the Tome of Decay forgot to include agility stats for daemon engine creation. By your own morals, would you simply not let the players Daemon Engines move at all? I'd certainly hope not, because that sounds awful.

 

As much as a I love FFG and the stuff they put out, their work in Star Wars, 40k, and other RPGs show that their material is apt for logical conclusions and technical houserulings.

 

I'm going to wait for an official ruling

 

 

 

Look at them, see what they mean. I would consider that they are immune to being on fire, which is tehcnically fear reflexes/Instinctive survival behaviours, to which the "fluff" part of from beyond describes them to be pretty much immune.

.  

The fluff is a bit controversial here.  Fire is often mentioned as an enemy of corruption.  It's a huge theme in Dark Heresy and 40k.  'From Beyond' suggests that demons don't get scared by things too often.  This makes sense.  It doesn't exactly mean that they don't act toward the angle of self preservation when operating outside the warp.  It also doesn't mean that they don't have to stop, drop, and roll.  The psychology test is about figuring out how to put themselves out as much as it is being worried about being on fire.

 

 

 

In my experience though with larger demons the trick is to get them on fire.  It doesn't mater if they pass/fail the psyc checks.  It's that big -20 AG test that keeps them using their full actions for stop, drop, and roll.  Also the 'flame' effect normally comes from molten beam as opposed to actual flamers in my games.     

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 The psychology test is about figuring out how to put themselves out as much as it is being worried about being on fire.

 

 

 

Going by the rules, failing the test is described as "While on fi re, a character must make a Challenging (+0) Willpower Test at the beginning of each of his Turns in order to be able to take Actions normally; otherwise, he may only run around and scream, counting as a Full Action".

 

Going by your own reliance on "rules only", that doesn't fit with your statement. It quite definitely is them being worried about being on fire. "Figuring out how to put themselves out" would be some kind of logic, lore, or straight intelligence test anyways since it's knowledge and knowledge tests are always free actions.

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 The psychology test is about figuring out how to put themselves out as much as it is being worried about being on 

 

Going by the rules, failing the test is described as "While on fi re, a character must make a Challenging (+0) Willpower Test at the beginning of each of his Turns in order to be able to take Actions normally; otherwise, he may only run around and scream, counting as a Full Action".

 

Going by your own reliance on "rules only", that doesn't fit with your statement. It quite definitely is them being worried about being on fire. "Figuring out how to put themselves out" would be some kind of logic, lore, or straight intelligence test anyways since it's knowledge and knowledge tests are always free actions.

 

 

I guess I can agree with that.  We just need a proper ruling.  

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