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Valarion

Bloodying Nurgle's Nose

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The OP began this thread asking for thoughts on his campaign. If he just wants to -

"In summation, I'll play 40k if it please me and I couldn't care less if you think I'm doing it wrong. You play it your way, I'll play it mine."

- then why bother asking our opinion in the first place?

As for your talk of following the setting like mindless sheep, that is blatantly ignoring, and frankly insulting, what most of us GMs here that do follow the lore are actually doing.

We place ourselves in the mindset of another world, one with rules and boundaries that we follow not because we can't come up with alternatives but because it challenges us to approach a subject from a different perspective.

My interpretation of the lore and what is canon may vary compared to others and I take liberties in my own games when it comes to topics the setting is vague on.

As for my statement, what exactly are you disagreeing with. The fact that the OP is cherry-picking from the game setting? Because he is. Or the fact tbat what he is creating is no longer recognisable as 40k? Which again, is a true statement.

Edited by SCKoNi

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Now to the OP because I want to get this out of the way, why are you even using stats and characters for this campaign? Why are you running it through Dark Heresy?

This is far, far outside the scope of the game system itself. Tell me, are you going to stat Isha? Will she have Strength and Willpower characteristics? Is she Size (4)? Does Nurgle's flabby arm swipe have a damage value?

If you are wanting to make a story like this, then write a fan fiction or a collaboratory work with your players.

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The OP began this thread asking for thoughts on his campaign. If he just wants to -

"In summation, I'll play 40k if it please me and I couldn't care less if you think I'm doing it wrong. You play it your way, I'll play it mine."

- then why bother asking our opinion in the first place?

 

 

I asked if my concept seemed possible, not for a philosophical debate on the right way to play, and mentality on playing the game. 

 

Look, I get it. You think I'm having badwrong fun. Comment on the concept and leave the philosophical game view out of it.

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I asked if my concept seemed possible, not for a philosophical debate on the right way to play, and mentality on playing the game. 

 

Look, I get it. You think I'm having badwrong fun. Comment on the concept and leave the philosophical game view out of it.

 

 

What are you on about? My post was literally about how the concept is impossible within the setting and I pointed out why with reasoning found in the lore of the game itself. Now I asked about how you are even going to utilize the existing game system (Dark Heresy 2nd Edition) within the context of your campaign.

So tell me, are you statting Isha and Nurgle? If not, how are the characters skills and talents coming into play? Are you going to stat pure forms of Nurgle Daemons, which btw are not the same as those found in any Codex or splatbook as those represent their corporeal forms.

 

These are not "philosophical" questions these are game facts.

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Isha no as she will not enter combat. Nurgle yes. And the daemons will have their stats increased by 50% as they would obviously be more powerful in the warp. In his weakened form I'm making Nurgle have 500 wounds and ridiculous stats. They aren't meant to fight him for more than a couple of rounds. If they do I have a 10 round countdown from the moment battle begins. If they don't figure out the plan, to which I will give a couple of clues, then at the end of those 10 rounds Nurgle will regain full power and capture them and make them suffer eternally. I never intended for them to be able to kill Nurgle.

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I believe his point is that stating a god is one of the silliest things to do in rpgs. They stated Cthulhu in Pathfinder (DnD too if I remember) it takes something away from the concept of the being.

 

I mean if you stat Nurgle (and I'm not saying you shouldn't) how do they compare to the other Chaos Gods? Why not stat Isha she is directly in the thrall of Nurgle, how so if she doesn't have stats? Shouldn't she be as powerful as the situation requires? How does Nurgle's powers work in game?

 

Primarchs are not walking gods, and they exist in a physical sense, Daemon princes also exist in a physical sense at times and are not gods, never heard of a daemon primarch unless you mean the primarchs that lead fallen legions, in which case also physically exist.

 

As he pointed out the Gods have never manifested in realspace nor do we even know if they can, because if they did they'd likely antimatter reality  and shatter the walls between reality and unreality in an instant. To stat such a being is an exercise in futility unless your daemon buster makes Nurgle more real and therefore weak with each round increasing the unreality of their existence to the point of being untouchable.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

It's your interpretation of the universe, do as you please but when you ask for something so out of the ordinary and as pointed out essentially impossible for lack of a more apt term don't get upset at people pointing out for a ton of reasons.

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And it is here that we find the diametrically opposed sides of pnprpg philosophy of to stat or not to stat deities. For me, and people like SCKoNI to stat a deity is to kill them. I mean what happens if in Nurgle's "weakened" state that they somehow manage to blow through its 500 wounds? Do you unfairly add on more wounds from these stats thereby invalidating them? Or do you kill the concept that is death, entropy, and rebirth?

 

Similarly speaking what if Isha is killed in the escape somehow? Currently she can't be, because you didn't stat her, and to kill her is unfair unless it is a narrative move which invalidates the player's effect on the game.

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I disagree with so much of that. Vehemently. I don't think it takes anything from a deity to stat them. Honestly I didn't even realize this was an argument. The companies that own the games put the stats out. All complaining about it can do is make you look whiny and petulant. It's not like they'll retract them. And statting them give the players something to shoot for. A proverbial mountain top above which there is no greater challenge. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

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And if they somehow manage to get him dangerously close to death I'll have him regain full power earlier than planned. As a GM you have to adapt and overcome the challenges to your campaign. We all know getting players to do what you want is like herding cats, so if you have to tweak your plans mid game then so be it. Otherwise you may as well play boxed campaigns and not even try to come up with original stories.

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The only one looking whiny and petulant here, is you. You have provided no references, no backgrounds, no evidence as to why statting Nurgle would make them game better for anyone except for the fact that you like it better that way. You are also obviously lying to your players by providing stats that are just a mirage, Nurgle will never die no matter how low HP they get him down to, so in other words the stats lose all meaning and purpose.

 

Statting gods is a case of stretching a game's rules beyond their intent. Characteristics represent the capabilities of people, inaccurately at that they are more representations of what a person can do. How do you apply that to something that is so far and beyond any individual no matter who they are as to considered an embodiment of a very ideal? Would you stat a mountain as well? Or stat a star for space combat? Does the Earth have structural integrity? Because that is actually more logical than statting a concept like Nurgle. And I do stress the concept  side of this because as has been clearly stated not just by me Nurgle is not  a thing, his garden is not made of trees, and he cannot be "weakened" through combat because he fighting him is like trying to fight the ocean.

 

Let me provide you with a quote about Nurgle that should explain what I mean.
"Beneath mildewed and sagging beams, the great god works for eternity at a rusted cauldron, a receptacle vast enough to contain all the oceans of all the worlds. Chuckling and murmuring to himself, Nurgle labours to create contagion and pestilence, the most sublime and unfettered forms of life."

 

This is how one sorcerer who cast his mind into the warp beheld the concept of Nurgle. His mind created an impossibility to attempt to rationalize the process of evolution itself, because that is what is on display here. Your players would not be face to face with a being, but with a process of nature that is being fueled by the endless cycle of death and rebirth of every living thing in the galaxy.

 

And you gave it 500 wounds.

Edited by SCKoNi

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In a temporarily weakened state. At full power he has 2,000. More than Emperor class Titans. With stats that would make him able to take on the entire Imperium at once and fight them to a stalemate. 

 

We're obviously not going to see eye to eye here. And that's okay. 

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And if they somehow manage to get him dangerously close to death I'll have him regain full power earlier than planned.

 

This alone makes the entire exercise of an RPG essentially null and void. You are taking away the player's effect upon the universe that you yourself game them the chance to commit.

 

Now I'm not going to insult you like SCKoNi did, like you did, by calling people whiny and petulant. These are simply different storytelling philosophies being enacted. I don't like stated deities because players for me will never be on the level to even do a single thing to them. In turn deities don't mess with players unless they feel like being particularly personified that day.

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I was with you man, up until you suggested stating Nurgle.

 

Stating Gods in D&D and Pathfinder is NOT the same as stating a god in Dark Heresy.

 

 

Within the context of D&D/Pathfinder it may be possible for some wily wizard to one day achieve a level of magical prowess so great he can challenge the heavens themselves.

 

....In the universe of Warhammer 40k, such individuals fall harder than Icarus. 

 

 

To challenge the Chaos Gods is to challenge a very aspect of existence. It's not a battle you can win-- or if you can, any victory you could possibly achieve is fleeting and insignificant (see Kaldor Draigo). 

 

You cannot kill a Chaos God with a sword or bolter. Shooting a Nova Cannon at one would be an exercise in futility. Giving a Chaos God stats IS an exercise in futility, because they are not, strictly speaking, corporeal concepts. If you could wield any weapon that might faze one, perhaps it would be the mind of a Psyker, but no Psyker save the Emperor could possibly manifest a strength of will great enough to even cause the Chaos God to note your existence. 

 

For the purposes of fighting him, Nurgle would effectively have infinite wounds. He is a metaphysical concept. He's very real. Oh yes. But he is not corporeal. He is not of physical matter that you can hurt, anymore than you can kill a thought.

 

Can you stab death with a sword? Can you hurt decay? Then you cannot harm Nurgle, no matter what you do.

 

 

This is why stating Nurgle is utterly pointless. In other games like D&D or Pathfinder, the Gods are physical entities. They have corporeal forms. The Gods in 40k do not. Battles against Chaos Gods is ideological, and the moment you try to make it physical you've already lost--- regardless of how great a warrior you may be, or how massive an army you may use.

Edited by ColArana

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Okay if it's really that different then maybe I shouldn't stat him. Just do that part through storytelling. It'd still have to have a win/lose criteria or it'd be pointless. He will take a big hit from the doomsday weapon I designed. It's highly compressed sacred ungents and curative medicines with some psychic mojo mixed in. It creates a static time loop that burns out after about a second but inside the bubble time is sped up so he'll get hit with this blast over and over again. Only the bomb gets reset in the loop so everything else in the bubble is just being sped up not reset. It's archeotech that has been sitting around for thousands of years and the Inquisition finally decided to put it to use. I never intended for the players to have even the slightest hope of killing Nurgle. He'll be staggering from the blast for a few rounds and then be unfightable again. I will need to come up with a few attacks for him though. I'm thinking a couple of psychic attacks, a couple of unique abilities, and a physical attack. Probably a stomp attack. He is the size of a starship after all. The psychic attacks I can pull from the black crusade books, but I could use a hand makng a couple of unique abilities for Papa Nurgle. I'm thinking something like a vomit attack and pus bursting forth from his flesh. Thoughts?

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Daemon Hunters (from DH1) has a disease creation system if I remember correctly. I'd have the PCs make a check each round they're in the garden or be affected by a disease that changes a part of itself with each failed test.

 

Nurgle is the size of whatever it wants to be, but at least larger than earth (based on the earlier description of the cauldron alone being able to hold the world's oceans and seas). The problem with physical is that if they get hit at all it's essentially taking a hit from a titan. Meaning death like instant -10000000000000 points from the sheer size of it. Nor has Grandpapa ever been big on psychic stuff either. I'd say spontaneous grotesque mutation and disease are the go to (yes mutation remember rebirth).

 

But the vomit attack would drown a world alone in volume, the pus could blot out a continent. Remember the volumes you're dealing with here.

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He can be as big or as small as he wants to be and that image was a perception in someone's mind. I don't think it was meant to be a literal description of the size and scale of Nurgle but more likely a description of his power. And he has to be able to interact with his minions so he's able to be at least as small as a Warhound titan, possibly smaller if he wants to fit inside his mansion, and I assume at some point he does.

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Out of sheer curiousity, what are you putting Nurgle's Fear Rating at? 

 

Given he's a Chaos God, I don;t think any of the fear ratings in the book would do him even close to justice. Like... if I ended up trying to do what you're doing in one of my campaigns, I'd honestly probably houserule Nurgle at Fear Rating 7 (-60 to willpower test :P)

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Or maybe the whole mansion thing is just symbolic, something that allows a simple mind to grasp the concept of what or who is Nurgle or just plain (forbidden) folklore. In reality it could just be energy and souls, formless, fed by endless tidal waves of a specific kind of emotional energy, originating from all kinds of beings in the material universe and reflected in the warp.

 

I always thought of the chaos gods as formless energy beings who are omnipresent throughout the universe (or at least its reflection in the immaterium). Their amount of power is the equivalent of the amount of energy they accumulated and thus determines their influence on the material universe when that powers manages to take form there through small warp rifts.

 

It's easier to worship something by thinking it's just a being like any being in the material universe. Daemons are also just energy, a spark of the power of a chaos god. In case they appear in the material realm, they are forced to take an actual form, partially abiding by the structured laws of reality and its physics. The warp and its energy are just formless in nature, when it gets used by a psyker, a psyker can bend the laws of reality to his will. 

 

Bottomline, going into the warp and setting foot on something that's structured (like a path, ground, garden, cavern, ...) is against one of the basic principles of what defines the warp. It is FORMLESS in nature, it doesn't abide by structured laws. A daemon appearing in the material realm has to expend almost all of its energy taking form and is unable to stay there for long. 

 

Using the folklore/symbolic aspects in a literal sense, like the mansion/garden of nurgle, the skull throne of khorne, etc is fine too though, but for me, it doesn't make much sense.

 

The only exception to this are daemon worlds where anything can happen, but it's because it's a combination of warp and reality, the reality demanding that physics and its laws are being followed and the warp having no such concepts, thus combined, the laws of the material universe can be bended and all kinds of odd impossible things can take place.

 

So thinking about it more, IF a mansion/garden of Nurgle would exist, it would definitely be on a daemon world. That would make it at least a bit more plausible. Still fighting a god itself wouldn't make much sense since Nurgle is omnipresent and formless. What you would be fighting is just another one of his daemons having taken shape on this daemon world. You could trick your players into thinking it's Nurgle, but in reality, it's just another daemon.

 

At least that way they can kill it. But whether or not they're able to fulfill their mission is another thing...

Edited by Gridash

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