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MorbidDon

Snipery and You

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My observation / question is;

 

How many shots would a sniper "really' get if the first shot missed?!

 

My example - Movie; The Gunman (not the best but listen)

 

There was a scene where a sniper in that movie had to shoot some big-wig; his window of opportunity was said quote 3 to 5 seconds end quote...

 

Now moving - say in RL someone took a pop shot at me and missed - first reaction is to run for cover - I want to say that in most situations I can find cover or get out of line of sight in 1 to 2 rounds (especially since I live in a city)

 

So - your GMing and PC misses their sniper shot

 

How many more chances do they get - keep in mind snipping in the core mechanics is a very very powerful ability to have - and with unlimited shot opportunities would/could be by far one of the most abused facets of the game system!

 

Thoughts, Suggestions, Jokes?

 

Morbid

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The way I'd run that encounter would be;

 

Sniper is undetected - opposed Stealth vs. Awareness rolls. Maybe increase the difficulty of the Awareness check based on cover etc. - sniper then has a Surprise Round against his target. Somehow manages to miss - worst sniper ever. 

 

Awareness checks again - modified by whether the weapon was silenced, was it a las weapon, weather and lighting conditions. If they fail, gets another Surprise Round, and then another Awareness check - one step easier this time - if they spot the sniper surprise Round is over, people roll Initiative. Run as normal combat. 

 

Your example of 3-5 seconds is roughly a Round (IIRC a Round is 6 seconds) so all this is achieved fairly easily using the combat mechanics. 

 

At least that's how I'd handle it.

Edited by frid

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It depends what the target is doing.

 

Sure, if he is standing doing nothing and the silenced shot miss him, you'll have another try.

 

But if the guy is walking between buildings and you have only a few metres you can see him, he'll disappear and you'll have missed your opportunity.

 

It's an interesting subject, but that's how I would see it, but thank you for making me think about it!

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I see both your points - I'm considering that when you miss - silenced or not something is gonna break, pop, crack, or explose when the round impacted near the target - thus foiling any further surprise - because the target is now aware they are being fired upon - it doesn't matter where - thats the distinction of play I'm trying to wrap my head around - like I said before - instinctively a "target" looks for cover - and and - if said cover "covers" the target entirely well then you as a sniper no longer have line of sight thus the target is no longer an attack+able option...

 

Thoughts?

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I guess that's allright.

 

Anyway, accurate weapon are so strong that you know...you must not let your NPC acts like dumbass.

 

Once, I was close to my home, walking, and then I heard a boom very similar to the one of a high calibre weapon (didn't know why or where it came from), but the only thing I thought about was running away like hell in direction of a cover.

 

I clearly heard the bang, but your bad guy must certainly know what to fear of a popping sound if it happens.

 

 

 

Let your sniper transform this scene in something very well builded:

-Find a noisy place where the ricochet won't be heard.

-Find a moment when the guy won't have easy access to cover

-etc.

 

This will make sniping more interesting since this will be more that just getting on a roof and pulling the trigger.

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Actual sniping (long distance, from concealment, etc.) is pretty rare in my experience, but when it happens, the sniper almost never misses; the bonuses really add up if you attack an unaware target and take your time to aim. For example, a BS 40 sniper armed with a long-las with a telescopic sight and taking a full round action to Aim beforehand will be at a net of +60 (+20 for Aiming, +10 for Accurate, +30 for Unaware Target, ignoring range penalties because of telescopic sight, +10 for Standard Attack, but capped at +60) for a Standard Attack or +40 (+20 for Aiming, +10 for Accurate, +30 for Unaware Target, ignoring range penalties because of telescopic sight, -20 for Called Shot) for a Called Shot. This gives him either a 99% or 80% chance of hitting, but if he misses or fails to kill his target then yes, I'd expect him not to have the chance of a second shot.

 

In actual play, though, I tend to find "snipers" behave more as designated marksmen, taking Half Actions to Aim and then firing Single Shots, usually well within their weapon's Short Range. This is very, very effective, probably more so than it ought to be, but it's not true sniping and they are usually visible to the enemy after the first round and well within the enemy's range to return fire. In these circumstances, I don't think missing is likely to preclude a second shot.

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You are right, but I think thats ok for the game to have that a high chance of success in general for snipers, as with the modificators above, they are good shooters (BS 40) that take their time to aim, and use a good weapon with the right equipment.

Maybe 90% would be better from a drama point of view jthan 99%, but you couls still bring obscured vision into the game (which happens quickly over big distances, especially with moving targets), or Bodyguards that regularly scan the surroundings with awareness tests to spot possible threats (so if the sniper doesnt act quickly, he risks being spotted).

 

Oh, and Keep in mind that you also Need to deal enough damage to kill the target right away. Hitting it not good enough might even be worse than missing it, as it might be prone and out of sight or be quickly dragged away by guards.

With a sniper rifle you deal 1d10+4 Pen 3 damage IIRC.

The pen 3 and +4 should cancel out most regular armour and TB. Which leaves you with 1d10 damage + pissible 2d10 with your accurate trait. Lets even be generous and add the +2 from Mighty shot to the mix.

This leaves us on average with 5,5*3+2 raw damage on the target, which is 18,5, say 19 damage.

Means, a elite or master target that has less than 12 wounds and no true grit, is instantly killed on average. Troops are instantly killed (which should be no Problem in my opinion).

Still meaning:

> Elite/master with more than 12 wounds have a good Chance to survive this

> True grit saves most from dying instantly

> masters can have fate Points that still save them if you Need them in your campaign

> damage throws below average still pose a risk

 

There are 1-2 other Talents that can help to improve chances for the sniper, but I still think it is by no way a 99% sure kill in total, even if it is a 99% hit.

 

A houserule that we use in addition regarding accurate weapons in general is also, that the damage bonus is only granted as long as the sniper weapon is braced (this also gives bipods and tripods more use, and prevents this kind of weapon to be used in close firefights).

Edited by GauntZero

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Yeah. I think true sniping works pretty much as it should: you have decent odds of dropping them, but dropped might not mean dead and in realistic circumstances you'll only get one try. 

 

Not to mention the times when you take the shot, blow half their head away and they just turn and smile at you right down your scope, as flies begin swarming from the gaping hole in their head and Sweet Emperor, what is that smell...

 

*coughs* That is to say, sometimes Acolytes will come up against things that, while they may look human and might once have been human, are now much tougher than humans. Forcefields are another thing that might keep an important NPC alive.

 

As I said, I think proper sniping is fine; it's the designated marksman thing that's a bit strong and the "must have a bipod to get extra damage from Accurate" house rule addresses that pretty nicely.

Edited by Ouroboros13

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I think my focus is on that 'window of opportunity" you ahve to take actual shots - that is a finite window - especially after shots are detected by the target...

 

For me you'd get 1 to 5 rounds (purely random herein) if nothing is designated (i.e. made concrete in the story/scene at that time)

 

What breaks the game and is unrealistic is the ability to just sit back and take shot after shot without end - granted I know snipers in the Middle East have had positions made available to them where a sniper and his spotter may sit there and take down foes for hours - but - in those hours they are NOT shooting at the same exact foe weather they died or escaped the snipping action in the first place...

 

I am concerned and focused upon THAT MOMENT

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In actual play, though, I tend to find "snipers" behave more as designated marksmen, taking Half Actions to Aim and then firing Single Shots, usually well within their weapon's Short Range. This is very, very effective, probably more so than it ought to be, but it's not true sniping and they are usually visible to the enemy after the first round and well within the enemy's range to return fire. In these circumstances, I don't think missing is likely to preclude a second shot.

 

Fascinating. Thanks for the link. 

 

 

Heck let me see if I can find a real sniper in RL to lend some knowledge to us - I still have enlisted friends so I'll get baq to you on this subject

 

I suspect that sniping in real life and 40k would be pretty different, but I suppose it's somewhere to start!

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The other thing to be aware of, is that cover won't actually provide it's benefit for too long against a determined sniper or even pair of. 

 

Take for example, you're out an about in a giant park built for the spire nobility. You're shot at - and for some embarrassing reason the sniper misses - you dive behind the nearest cover which happens to be a tree

 

It takes only 9 shots for that cover to be utterly destroyed - admittedly if your players are hiding behind cover for 9 Rounds they deserve everything they get - my point is, that cover isn't an automatic and total defence against snipers - or designated marksman. 

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Having played and GM in other game systems with Snipers, if they miss and a Sniper at unaware but mobile targets rarely miss, but should they miss.  Then they really need to snap shot the next round into the target zone, and hope they bag hit, best if in game terms they can beat Init of their Target.

 

Also if the target has security, the 1st thing they are going to do is protect their principal at the risk of their own lives

Now here they hit but watch the security responce, https://youtu.be/ceA14qmMYvY?t=9m

Now if they had missed security would be more like Reagan Assassination Attempt

https://youtu.be/N1Jid5uRFo4?t=25s

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As some have pointed out above, what passes for sniping on the tabletop is more along the lines of sharpshooting. The rules for Accurate are pretty crazy, but gaving only one shot per round keeps it somewhat in check. As a gm, if my players were setting up an actual sniper scenario wherein they were trying to assassinate a target from long distance, i wouldn't treat it as a combat scenario. It would come down to stealth and maybe a target threshold of DoS. If the shooter hits the threshold, he gets his shot and the target is dead. Hit or miss, from that point it becomes a mission of evade and escape.

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Ah....There are people who understand why accurate weapons are like this... and there are some who don't. Almost all from my group rant about it like "Dam Hunting rifle better than melta" and improvised their own version of it
 

"The aim action provides +10 bonus (in total +20 BS for a half-action aim, and +30 BS for a full-action aim). A single shot fired by an Accurate weapon while under the effect of Aim does an additional 1 damage per DoS of the BS attack. For the purpose of calculating this extra damage, the +60 bonus cap does not apply (it still applies for the purpose of hitting the target)." I do not like it.

 

as for how many chances, if you watched "The jackal" with Bruce Willis you would get the idea.

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Ah.. The dreaded accurate an snipery issues. We have discussed this subject to hell and back with our group. 
So let's get into the thick of it:
>So - your GMing and PC misses their sniper shot

>How many more chances do they get - keep in mind snipping in the core mechanics is a very 

As much as the dice gods decide according to the in-game mechanics. Provided the sniper is in cover and is prepared, he will most likely invoke the surprise action and remain hidden for the first rounds of combat. What you want is already there in game, you don't need to create additional rules just apply the existing rules.

Speaking of the sniping itself IMHO currently dh2/dh1 snipers are not implemented correctly. What I mean is that any idiot with brains and ability to do a half action aim, can do devastating damage to any target with minimum investments, all you need is a hunting rifle and some luck. This is why we use this house rule:"The aim action provides +10 bonus (in total +20 BS for a half-action aim, and +30 BS for a full-action aim). A single shot fired by an Accurate weapon while under the effect of Aim does an additional 1 damage per DoS of the BS attack. For the purpose of calculating this extra damage, the +60 bonus cap does not apply (it still applies for the purpose of hitting the target).

 

Sniping\Sharpshooting is an issue of skill, not just the weapons ability. what old accurate does is make anyone with an accurate weapon a powerhouse. Ours on the other hand takes preparation, pc's skill, and equipment into account.

More on the accurate issue: 
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/195288-errata-accurate-rules/

 

Edited by hav0c

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My point was the "whole window of opportunity" thing...

 

I hate to use movie references but watch "the Gunman" - there's a scene target is in car - sniper has 3 second window - after that there is no target to even aim at...

 

So to me in a game that has "parts" espionage - sniping is like a ONE TIME ability you get to us per scene unless the target is one that remains... well target-able within field of sight - then by all means sniping over and over till the Grox come home LOL!

 

 

Stay GAMING

Morbid

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Yep on a target where you have a window on opportunity, the Sniper is going only get 1 good sniper shot at his target..  maybe he will get a 2nd shot but it will not be Scoped out but aimed into the general area of the target kinda a hail mary shot.

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Isn't this very much dependent on the situation?


If you snipe on someone in a warzone (or an equally prepared person) - I'd say yes you only get 1 shot and then they are jumping or running for cover. But that's doesn't mean they are out of harms way. They might be pinned and without exact knowledge of where the shot came from leaving them to stay completely still or get shot at again.

If you are assassinating some politician or noble who hasn't seen this coming they be freaked completely out leaving a window of oppotunity for a second shot. Also they might react completely irrational and run for help which might be in a direction without cover leaving them open for a 3rd shot (although with penalty for running).

 

So I'd say it's very dependent on the situation of the target.
 

and second shots can still very easily get no range penalties and +30 % bonus to bs making it very deadly shots. (+10 standard attack, +10 ½ aim and +10 accurate). 

Edited by Jeppe Sejer

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I agree with the detailing you've expressed Jeppe...

 

You're logic is sound - in essence "sniping" in a "scene" offers 1 to 3 chances - and thus the foil if you will for it's "powerful" game mechanics is "balanced" by such particulars...

 

I come the old school or RPGs whereby if a bonus is given then an equal penalty should be applied as well. (benefit/disadvantage)

 

As for us here - I'm trying to eliminate what could be "cheesy" or known as game creep

 

Stay GAMING

Morbid

Edited by MorbidDon

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