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Rajam

Canceling treacheries?

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Eleanor is the other big one.  Beyond that, there is the newer card The Door is Closed, or in the Saga campaigns you have Frodo.  The options for cancellation are fairly limited.

 

Scrying can be pretty effective though.  Henamarth Riversong or Denethor in solo.  Risk Some Light, Palantir, Out of the Wild can be good for avoiding treacheries.  There are a few other cards that let you look at the top card of the encounter deck.

Edited by Teamjimby

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Honestly, I think this is the thing we need the most going forward in the player cardpool. 

 

I get that treacheries are supposed to be a big deal and adding too much cancellation kind of defangs them. But at this point in the game I think we need at least one more straight up cancel. Even if it's expensive. I would love to see something like: Neutral event, [3-4 cost], Response: Discard a non-unique card just revealed form the Encounter Deck. Then replace it with the top card of the encounter deck. 

 

It's powerful no doubt but I think the expense would balance it and it would allow all decks to have some measure of cancellation just in case. 

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Hmm, perhaps more cancellation is needed, but most treacheries can be played around.  The ones that can't be played around you have to build your deck around which is a large part of this game for people like me.  I love that I can't just cancel all the treacheries and instead have to optimize my deck in order to trivialize, or at the least mitigate the encounter deck's threat.

 

One example of this to me is a card like the Master's Malice.  This card can completely obliterate a lot of otherwise strong decks.  However, this card can do absolutely nothing if you are running a mono-sphere deck.  If there was just more cancellation, I wouldn't even have to change my deck to deal with this card.

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Hmm, perhaps more cancellation is needed, but most treacheries can be played around.  The ones that can't be played around you have to build your deck around which is a large part of this game for people like me.  I love that I can't just cancel all the treacheries and instead have to optimize my deck in order to trivialize, or at the least mitigate the encounter deck's threat.

 

One example of this to me is a card like the Master's Malice.  This card can completely obliterate a lot of otherwise strong decks.  However, this card can do absolutely nothing if you are running a mono-sphere deck.  If there was just more cancellation, I wouldn't even have to change my deck to deal with this card.

Cancellation should be an option. Some people don't like building new decks for every single quest.

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Hmm, perhaps more cancellation is needed, but most treacheries can be played around.  The ones that can't be played around you have to build your deck around which is a large part of this game for people like me.  I love that I can't just cancel all the treacheries and instead have to optimize my deck in order to trivialize, or at the least mitigate the encounter deck's threat.

 

One example of this to me is a card like the Master's Malice.  This card can completely obliterate a lot of otherwise strong decks.  However, this card can do absolutely nothing if you are running a mono-sphere deck.  If there was just more cancellation, I wouldn't even have to change my deck to deal with this card.

Cancellation should be an option. Some people don't like building new decks for every single quest.

 

 

And that's why there are a great deal of scenarios (in fact, the majority) that don't require you to do that.  However, this game is not made with only that kind of person in mind.

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I think the biggest thing is to take treachery/shadow control out of the stranglehold of spirit. While the recent cardpool has given additional options to lore -- in addition to its scrying capabilities -- and while leadership has some shadow cancellation option, tactics is completely out in the cold on both treachery and shadow control. There should be some way of dealing with both, as there are many game-ending effects that can just end a tactics deck. The designers have proven they can bring in off-sphere capabilities in unique and thematically satisfying ways in other regards -- for example, Trained for War was a great way of allowing tactics to get in on the questing game, and the new trend of giving tactics damage cancellation is a fun way to expand 'healing' beyond lore. I'm sure that there are ways to thematically allow tactics some options in dealing with treachery and shadow effects.

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In multiplayer the sadly overlooked card Gildor's Council helps a lot.

Well, this issue is a little more complicated. Treacheries can really only have a limited variety of effects. If we look beyond strict treachery cancelation and consider how to stop the specific effects, then there are many more cards to consider. The card "free to choose", for instance, cancels treacheries that raise threat. Weather Stained cloak helps against treacheries that deal damage. We have the 1 blue Gondor guy that cancels surge.

The most brutal treachery effects that have no real counter (other than strict cancelation) are adding additional enemies and causing enemies to initiate extra attacks. Those are the most punishing effects in the game, with no counter.

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I think the biggest thing is to take treachery/shadow control out of the stranglehold of spirit. While the recent cardpool has given additional options to lore -- in addition to its scrying capabilities -- and while leadership has some shadow cancellation option, tactics is completely out in the cold on both treachery and shadow control. There should be some way of dealing with both, as there are many game-ending effects that can just end a tactics deck. The designers have proven they can bring in off-sphere capabilities in unique and thematically satisfying ways in other regards -- for example, Trained for War was a great way of allowing tactics to get in on the questing game, and the new trend of giving tactics damage cancellation is a fun way to expand 'healing' beyond lore. I'm sure that there are ways to thematically allow tactics some options in dealing with treachery and shadow effects.

 

Tactics has a lot of ways of dealing with shadow cards, I think.  It's just not direct cancellation.

 

Here are some Tactics cards that allow you to deal with shadow cards, but not in a cancellation sense...

 

Aragorn/Merry (Keep threat low > kill one enemy with Aragorn/Merry > engage one that you left in the staging area and kill it with readied Aragorn)

Feint

Anything with direct damage that can kill enemies before/as they attack

Westfold Outrider (engage enemy that you left in staging area after enemies have had chance to attack)

Hands Upon the Bow

Quick Strike

The Wizard's Voice

Thicket of Spears

Tireless Hunters

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If tactics had a shield that could be exhausted to cancel a treachery...

 

That kind of repeatable treachery cancellation would probably be too OP. Plus, it would kind of steal Spirit's thunder--Spirit is the cancellation sphere so if you're going to make a Tactics card move in on that territory it would need to be a less powerful effect (or at least way more conditional one), not a more powerful one. 

 

But maybe tactics could have some kind of event that did something like:

 

Response: cancel the When Revealed effect on a card just revealed from the encounter deck. Then put the enemy with the highest threat in the discard pile into play engaged with you. 

 

This could be balanced because keywords would still trigger (like in Eleanor's case) and you are having an enemy still enter play. But an enemy is often something Tactics is more able to deal with than other treacheries. 

 

 

 

 

Hmm, perhaps more cancellation is needed, but most treacheries can be played around.  The ones that can't be played around you have to build your deck around which is a large part of this game for people like me.  I love that I can't just cancel all the treacheries and instead have to optimize my deck in order to trivialize, or at the least mitigate the encounter deck's threat.

 

One example of this to me is a card like the Master's Malice.  This card can completely obliterate a lot of otherwise strong decks.  However, this card can do absolutely nothing if you are running a mono-sphere deck.  If there was just more cancellation, I wouldn't even have to change my deck to deal with this card.

Cancellation should be an option. Some people don't like building new decks for every single quest.

 

 

And that's why there are a great deal of scenarios (in fact, the majority) that don't require you to do that.  However, this game is not made with only that kind of person in mind.

 

 

I have some sympathy for where you're coming from here but I've got to disagree. 

 

You're right that not all players play the game the same way. Some people (yourself included, I would guess based on the tone of your statement, but I could be wrong) enjoy the versatile challenge of building a custom deck to take on a given scenario. Others (myself included, so I'm hardly unbiased here) hate that part of the game and prefer the challenge of building a single, more flexible deck to take on all scenarios. 

 

And that's fine--different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

But--and here's where I think we disagree--adding a greater variety of cancellation doesn't hurt the people that want to custom-build for each Quest. But it does help those like me that want to build more flexible, general-purpose decks. The custom builder, after all, can always choose not to use a given card in their deck construction but not having it in the cardpool hurts others without having any upside. 

 

 

I think the biggest thing is to take treachery/shadow control out of the stranglehold of spirit. While the recent cardpool has given additional options to lore -- in addition to its scrying capabilities -- and while leadership has some shadow cancellation option, tactics is completely out in the cold on both treachery and shadow control. There should be some way of dealing with both, as there are many game-ending effects that can just end a tactics deck. The designers have proven they can bring in off-sphere capabilities in unique and thematically satisfying ways in other regards -- for example, Trained for War was a great way of allowing tactics to get in on the questing game, and the new trend of giving tactics damage cancellation is a fun way to expand 'healing' beyond lore. I'm sure that there are ways to thematically allow tactics some options in dealing with treachery and shadow effects.

 

Agreed. Hope that we see something, if not exactly like the event I proposed above, then at least similar in execution.

 

Tactics gets some treachery cancellation or avoidance in exchange for exposing them to some other challenge that is more within their wheelhouse to handle (engaging, adding or being attacked by enemies in all likelihood). 

 

 

In multiplayer the sadly overlooked card Gildor's Council helps a lot.

Well, this issue is a little more complicated. Treacheries can really only have a limited variety of effects. If we look beyond strict treachery cancelation and consider how to stop the specific effects, then there are many more cards to consider. The card "free to choose", for instance, cancels treacheries that raise threat. Weather Stained cloak helps against treacheries that deal damage. We have the 1 blue Gondor guy that cancels surge.

The most brutal treachery effects that have no real counter (other than strict cancelation) are adding additional enemies and causing enemies to initiate extra attacks. Those are the most punishing effects in the game, with no counter.

 

These work, and can work well, but for the most part are of more use to people building custom decks to take on a given scenario. In a more generally focused deck "Free to Choose" is a dead card probably 40% of the time. Weather Stained Cloak is dead closer to 75%.

 

This is actually a conflict in card design I think is happening more often lately as it looks like people really are trying to play the game in two very different ways. I mean, people always have but recently I have seen more discussion about it and complaints from one side or the other. 

 

 

 

I think the biggest thing is to take treachery/shadow control out of the stranglehold of spirit. While the recent cardpool has given additional options to lore -- in addition to its scrying capabilities -- and while leadership has some shadow cancellation option, tactics is completely out in the cold on both treachery and shadow control. There should be some way of dealing with both, as there are many game-ending effects that can just end a tactics deck. The designers have proven they can bring in off-sphere capabilities in unique and thematically satisfying ways in other regards -- for example, Trained for War was a great way of allowing tactics to get in on the questing game, and the new trend of giving tactics damage cancellation is a fun way to expand 'healing' beyond lore. I'm sure that there are ways to thematically allow tactics some options in dealing with treachery and shadow effects.

 

Tactics has a lot of ways of dealing with shadow cards, I think.  It's just not direct cancellation.

 

Here are some Tactics cards that allow you to deal with shadow cards, but not in a cancellation sense...

 

Aragorn/Merry (Keep threat low > kill one enemy with Aragorn/Merry > engage one that you left in the staging area and kill it with readied Aragorn)

Feint

Anything with direct damage that can kill enemies before/as they attack

Westfold Outrider (engage enemy that you left in staging area after enemies have had chance to attack)

Hands Upon the Bow

Quick Strike

The Wizard's Voice

Thicket of Spears

Tireless Hunters

 

 

Absolutely agree for Shadow effects. I think they are actually as well off as any sphere there. They don't have a Balin, Hasty Stroke or Burning Brand (or even a Silver Lamp or Dark Knowledge) but they have so many combat effects that it makes up for it.

 

Not so for treacheries though. They do hurt there. 

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But--and here's where I think we disagree--adding a greater variety of cancellation doesn't hurt the people that want to custom-build for each Quest. But it does help those like me that want to build more flexible, general-purpose decks. The custom builder, after all, can always choose not to use a given card in their deck construction but not having it in the cardpool hurts others without having any upside.

 

I do like building general, all-purpose decks too.  I've beaten nearly all the scenarios with my Dwarf deck, after all.  However, what I don't like is having no scenarios that challenge my all-purpose deck (which is one of my small issues with this game).  There are already too few scenarios that challenge it, and adding cancellation everywhere would just exacerbate that problem.

 

When I said that the designers don't make the game with "only that type of person in mind" I wasn't implying there is only one other type which I think may have been misunderstood.  The types of players I'm talking about don't really fit into any two molds.  Players are all looking for different things.  I really think that the designers have done quite a good job of catering to various player bases. 

 

I think making cancellation more prevalent would greatly negatively impact the players who want scenarios to challenge their all-purpose decks, though.  And this is the main area that we disagree.  I may be wrong, but it seems you want cancellation to be more prevalent so that your all-purpose deck can more consistently defeat scenarios and I want the opposite.  So, if the designers want to cater to both of us they need to find some middle-ground.  And I think they have...The card "The Door is Closed" was a really cool addition to the game.  It wasn't some unconditional cancellation like A Test of Will and it really only fits into a specific kind of deck.  So the designers somehow managed to add more cancellation to the game, without making the game "too easy", while at the same time giving some players the ability to use a new type of cancellation.

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I have no personal experience with this game that in any way helps me empathize with the people who worry that scenarios might be too easy. Most times I sit down at the table, I lose, often catastrophically. Granted, this is generally because I don't build decks for power but to play around with theme and try out different styles of play. In general, I find that unless I play with a fairly limited set of go-to cards (A Test of Will among them), I will just lose without a fight, and that is quite frustrating, and I think the source of people wanting a wider pool of viable options to deal with some of the nastiest encounter effects.

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I can understand that frustration, I suppose.  When I play 3-player, the game is quite a bit more challenging.  Northern Tracker and A Test of Will seem almost necessary for many scenarios while playing 3-player.

 

The two decks we use in two player to win most scenarios have pretty much what I consider to be all the strongest cards in the game :P

 

I think it is odd that people want the standard game to be easier to accommodate thematic decks, though.  Theme is a self imposed handicap and as a result, the game will be harder.  The designers have even given players the option to play "easy mode" (which I've said before is terrible terrible marketing and should be called "thematic mode" so people wouldn't be so averse to playing it).  Easy mode allows thematic decks to do well while still enjoying the theme of your deck.

Edited by cmabr002

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If tactics had a shield that could be exhausted to cancel a treachery...

 

That kind of repeatable treachery cancellation would probably be too OP.

Maybe restrict it by saying "each time this ability is used add one resource token to the attachment. If this attachment reaches 1/2/3/x resources it is destroyed.

??

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I really don't feel like more treachery cancellation is that needed with the game as it is. True cancel-or-die treacheries are mostly a thing of the past, so one unlucky reveal without Test of Will shouldn't really spell disaster. Like DukeWellington says, they mostly have a limited set of effects, and those effects can be handled by more general purpose cards which you'll want to have in a deck that's designed to beat any scenario. Threat increaases are countered by threat reduction. Direct damage is countered by damage cancellation and healing. Extra threat is countered by better questing. Extra enemies or attacks are countered by good combat capabilities and readying effects. It's a very frequent occurrence for me when playing to look at a treachery, look at Test of Will in my hand, and go "Nah, I can cope with this, save the cancel for something worse," often continuing to do this for the whole game and winning the quest with two or three copies of Test of Will in my hand that I never really needed. And if I build without Spirit then I'll probably have more of other things to compensate for the fact I can never cancel anything.

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I agree in principle that another cancellation card is probably good.  Besides the Door is Closed which only really works in one specific type of deck, all we've got is Eleanor and Test of Will... both of which are Core.  

How to do it is tricky.   Making it too repeatable is just not good for the game.  alexbobspoons, we have to remember that people are probably going to be running x3 of these cards in their deck.   If we had such an attachment that worked just twice, a deck could cancel 6 treacheries without even resorting to "get a card back from your discard pile" or anything special.  

Do we need to release Treachery cancellation from "the stranglehold" of spirit?   Hm... I don't know.   Spirit is in a weird place right now,  a place it wasn't in when I first started the game.  Generally speaking Spirit doesn't fight well, and has good initial stats for Willpower, but nothing to boost these stats higher once you get to the mid/late game, and they have cancellation.  Would taking spirit's monopoly away shift people away from playing Spirit?   Probably at least some.  Maybe that doesn't matter.

What I do think is important is that if we do get a new cancellation card, that it is non-repeatable and it comes with a cost that is more than just paying resources.  Maybe it could be like a 1-shot Eleanor where you cancel and then get a new card.   Or you could make it Doomed, but that was an idea I had before Keen as Lances and Favor of the Valar came out.  Maybe you have to remove say 2-3 characters from the Quest to use it.  That would be an idea.  

So, more cancellation:  yes.   Other spheres?  Sure, but I think we should leave Spirit with the best option in A Test of Will.  And make the card interesting, make it cost something.   imagine a tactics card where you have to remove 3 characters from the quest to cancel a treachery.   Cancelling treachery would be great...  do you really want to commit 3 of your characters to the quest?   Sometimes it would be no problem.   Sometimes it created a meaningful choice for the player,  and creating meaningful choices is what makes any game fun.

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I can understand that frustration, I suppose.  When I play 3-player, the game is quite a bit more challenging.  Northern Tracker and A Test of Will seem almost necessary for many scenarios while playing 3-player.

 

The two decks we use in two player to win most scenarios have pretty much what I consider to be all the strongest cards in the game :P

 

I think it is odd that people want the standard game to be easier to accommodate thematic decks, though.  Theme is a self imposed handicap and as a result, the game will be harder.  The designers have even given players the option to play "easy mode" (which I've said before is terrible terrible marketing and should be called "thematic mode" so people wouldn't be so averse to playing it).  Easy mode allows thematic decks to do well while still enjoying the theme of your deck.

 

So, I agree 100% that "Easy Mode" is terrible. But I don't think it's just a matter of terrible marketing--it's terrible design.

 

I've said for a long time (even pre-"Easy Mode") that the game should have shipped with each quest having a varying difficulty. And it should have been Easy (or thematic, whatever), normal, and Hard (or Nightmare, Hardcore, whatever). And it shouldn't just be a matter of removing cards but replacing them.

 

The problem with "Easy Mode" as-is (and the reason I don't play it even when playing with casual players) is that it removes some of the most interesting challenges in the scenario (and what they are balanced for) without replacing it with anything. In a lot of cases making the quest "easier" also makes it worse and that's a problem. Having a "standard" difficulty that would allow us to play some of the lesser-used and thematic cards while still providing some challenge and excitement and then allowing people to decide to go up (and just use all the best cards/combos) or down (and run purer, more thematic decks) from there is just a better way to balance things to make everyone happy.  

 

But hey! We at least kind of agree on something! :D

 

 

 

 

If tactics had a shield that could be exhausted to cancel a treachery...

 

That kind of repeatable treachery cancellation would probably be too OP.

Maybe restrict it by saying "each time this ability is used add one resource token to the attachment. If this attachment reaches 1/2/3/x resources it is destroyed.

??

 

 

I get what you're going for but if there was an attachment like that it really would make Tactics the cancellation sphere. Why run Spirit? Unless you're also going to then give Spirit better cancellation but then things start getting a little out of hand :)

 

I think that the best Tactics effects are the ones that are combat related. Legolas has one of my favorite effects because it makes sense--he is furthering the Quest through his martial skill as a warrior. Other "out-of-sphere" specialty effects should follow the same mold and have something to do with combat (in my opinion, obviously). The "exhaust a weapon" events are alright but I prefer the more direct: "attack, defend, kill something, or something is trying to attack or engage you".

 

 

I agree in principle that another cancellation card is probably good.  Besides the Door is Closed which only really works in one specific type of deck, all we've got is Eleanor and Test of Will... both of which are Core.  

How to do it is tricky.   Making it too repeatable is just not good for the game.  alexbobspoons, we have to remember that people are probably going to be running x3 of these cards in their deck.   If we had such an attachment that worked just twice, a deck could cancel 6 treacheries without even resorting to "get a card back from your discard pile" or anything special.  

Do we need to release Treachery cancellation from "the stranglehold" of spirit?   Hm... I don't know.   Spirit is in a weird place right now,  a place it wasn't in when I first started the game.  Generally speaking Spirit doesn't fight well, and has good initial stats for Willpower, but nothing to boost these stats higher once you get to the mid/late game, and they have cancellation.  Would taking spirit's monopoly away shift people away from playing Spirit?   Probably at least some.  Maybe that doesn't matter.

What I do think is important is that if we do get a new cancellation card, that it is non-repeatable and it comes with a cost that is more than just paying resources.  Maybe it could be like a 1-shot Eleanor where you cancel and then get a new card.   Or you could make it Doomed, but that was an idea I had before Keen as Lances and Favor of the Valar came out.  Maybe you have to remove say 2-3 characters from the Quest to use it.  That would be an idea.  

So, more cancellation:  yes.   Other spheres?  Sure, but I think we should leave Spirit with the best option in A Test of Will.  And make the card interesting, make it cost something.   imagine a tactics card where you have to remove 3 characters from the quest to cancel a treachery.   Cancelling treachery would be great...  do you really want to commit 3 of your characters to the quest?   Sometimes it would be no problem.   Sometimes it created a meaningful choice for the player,  and creating meaningful choices is what makes any game fun.

 

100% agree that Spirit is in a weird place right now (especially as Noldor is kind of taking their "play out of the discard pile" thing away from them). Easy (or easier) cancelation should be a thing that is exclusive to Spirit. But that doesn't mean that other spheres can't have some means to do it. It just needs to be more costly--but in a way that makes sense and can work for that sphere. 

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Having a "standard" difficulty that would allow us to play some of the lesser-used and thematic cards while still providing some challenge and excitement and then allowing people to decide to go up (and just use all the best cards/combos) or down (and run purer, more thematic decks) from there is just a better way to balance things to make everyone happy.

The standard difficulty level of quests already meet those criteria.

Don't believe me? Name me some of these lesser-used/thematic cards, and I will beat quests with them.

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Having a "standard" difficulty that would allow us to play some of the lesser-used and thematic cards while still providing some challenge and excitement and then allowing people to decide to go up (and just use all the best cards/combos) or down (and run purer, more thematic decks) from there is just a better way to balance things to make everyone happy.

The standard difficulty level of quests already meet those criteria.

Don't believe me? Name me some of these lesser-used/thematic cards, and I will beat quests with them.

 

 

Then you're a better-than-average player. That's awesome--there's nothing wrong with that, I just don't think the game's default state should be balanced based on a minority of superior players. That's what  a harder mode should be balanced for. A harder mode that, in my example, would not be something you would have to purchase seperatly ala current Nightmare decks and would still be harder than the current baseline. 

 

The simple fact is that--I think, there's really no empirical way to prove this--the majority of players find this games normal mode very challenging with all but a select number of decks/combos. Some people are naturally better at the game/have more time to develop those skills than others but I would say the average finds it challenging-to-hard. 

 

I think that player is what the normal difficulty should be balanced for rather than the best cards/decks and/or the most skilled players. There should absolutely be content for those players--I was just saying I wished the content would cater to a greater variety of players. The way it attempts to do so now (Easy Mode and additional-purchase Nightmare Decks) isn't particularly satisfying.

 

Obviously this is all my opinion. 

 

EDIT: 

 

Also, apologies to @Rajam. I feel like I may have accidentally side-tracked this thread. :/

Edited by JonofPDX

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"Fortify"

Tactics

Attachment

Cost 1

Can only be attached to an Armor attachment in play.

Response: discard Fortify and the Armor attachment to which it is attached, to cancel the 'when revealed' effects of a treachery card just revealed by the encounter deck, or to cancel a shadow card just triggered in an attack against the character who has Fortify attached.

Limit 1 per Deck?

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What about a Tactics ally with an ability:

Response: After a treachery is revealed from the encounter deck, exhaust <this ally> to engage an enemy in the staging area and discard the revealed treachery without resolving its When Revealed effects.

That way, it's still limited to situations where you have an enemy in the staging area (that you're willing to engage!), plus you have to decide to exhaust an ally - an even more difficult choice if their stat line is combat-decent like 0/3/2/3 Sentinel - and it doesn't cancel Doomed or Surge effects. It's restricted enough that it's not auto-include, but still powerful enough to not be a coaster.

Edited by Network57

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I've no objection to any of the spheres getting treachery cancellation.  Spirit isn't "the treachery cancellation sphere" because it has a wealth of cards that deal with treacheries.  It's the "treachery cancellation sphere" because of one Hero and one player card -- and the player card doesn't even single out treacheries!  The only sphere that can cancel a treachery card outright (with  the help of Out of the Wild) is Lore.

 

I don't see any philosophical reason that *every* sphere can cancel shadow effects in one way or another, but only Spirit can cancel a "when revealed".  While "when revealed" effects are generally more powerful, the cost can correspondingly be higher.

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