Two Weapon Fighting questions

[SJanson 32]

 

And what about passive effects? Defensive and/or Deflect on the second weapon would work normally even if I didn't attack with it first?

 

 

As neither Defensive nor Deflect contribute in any way to their wielder's attack roll, I see no reason they would not apply.  Only modifications on the secondary weapon that affect attack dice pools are ignored when using Two Weapon Fighting, as I understand it.

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are acting like an attack is a single sword swing or trigger pull. That is not what they are or how things behave in this system.

 

Yes, I realize that.  Thus, the comment you just quoted -- it's one of the things I'm very glad I learned before investing money.   I want an attack to represent an attack, a block to represent a block, etc.

 

 

You do know that no system actually does that right? Aside from palladium. Largely because you end up with an extremely slow combat. It is just not worth doing in that manner.

 

 

WEG d6, at least in the old Star Wars days.

 

HERO system.

 

White Wolf, at least in the pre-nWoD editions.

 

Etc.

 

WEG d6 star wars is good at first... has some serious power curve and force related issues. When you get higher in level things can become a slog or too easy. The Force quickly becomes an I win button. FFG star wars does seem to barrow heavily from WEG star wars. every character action involves about 4 rolls. so each round is going to take FOREVER. I roll to hit tally the number. They roll to dodge tally the number..Oh they still hit roll to damage and location...again you have to tally the number... then roll to prevent the damage...so on and so forth...

Hero is incredibly slow. It is a good system. but no one would ever call it fast. 

white wolf has never been in my experience about combat. 

Combat in FFG star wars is fast fun dynamic and really feels like star wars. More than any edition I have played and I have played them all. And I hate to break it to you all of the systems you listed are abstractions. And I would rather have a fun mechanic that is easy to use fast dynamic and fun...I don't find adding up d6s repeatedly to figure out what happened to be fun. The FFG system instead creates a single dice pool and things like cover, dodging, etc effect the pool. lightsaber parries when you really get down to it are just preventing damage. it being soak is really no worse than a die roll to see if you block the shot.. and really cutting down on endless die rolls is faster and way more fun.

 

What's all this? You made the assertion that no system treats individual combat moves as distinct actions/rolls, and I listed three that do.

 

 

And I explained why doing so sucks. and lowers your fun. And they are still abstractions. as all games have to abstract. 

 

 

 

Maybe it lowers your fun -- when I'm trying to actively block an incoming attack and the mechanics for doing so are the same as partially soaking damage, the inherent disconnect is going to lower my fun. 

 

Never mind that you said "no system does X" and someone was immediately able to list off three systems that do X.  If you want to move the goalposts to "no system does that in a way that Daeglan finds fun", then, whatever.

Edited February 10, 2016 by MaxKilljoy

[Daeglan 5,950]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are acting like an attack is a single sword swing or trigger pull. That is not what they are or how things behave in this system.

 

Yes, I realize that.  Thus, the comment you just quoted -- it's one of the things I'm very glad I learned before investing money.   I want an attack to represent an attack, a block to represent a block, etc.

 

 

You do know that no system actually does that right? Aside from palladium. Largely because you end up with an extremely slow combat. It is just not worth doing in that manner.

 

 

WEG d6, at least in the old Star Wars days.

 

HERO system.

 

White Wolf, at least in the pre-nWoD editions.

 

Etc.

 

WEG d6 star wars is good at first... has some serious power curve and force related issues. When you get higher in level things can become a slog or too easy. The Force quickly becomes an I win button. FFG star wars does seem to barrow heavily from WEG star wars. every character action involves about 4 rolls. so each round is going to take FOREVER. I roll to hit tally the number. They roll to dodge tally the number..Oh they still hit roll to damage and location...again you have to tally the number... then roll to prevent the damage...so on and so forth...

Hero is incredibly slow. It is a good system. but no one would ever call it fast. 

white wolf has never been in my experience about combat. 

Combat in FFG star wars is fast fun dynamic and really feels like star wars. More than any edition I have played and I have played them all. And I hate to break it to you all of the systems you listed are abstractions. And I would rather have a fun mechanic that is easy to use fast dynamic and fun...I don't find adding up d6s repeatedly to figure out what happened to be fun. The FFG system instead creates a single dice pool and things like cover, dodging, etc effect the pool. lightsaber parries when you really get down to it are just preventing damage. it being soak is really no worse than a die roll to see if you block the shot.. and really cutting down on endless die rolls is faster and way more fun.

 

What's all this? You made the assertion that no system treats individual combat moves as distinct actions/rolls, and I listed three that do.

 

 

And I explained why doing so sucks. and lowers your fun. And they are still abstractions. as all games have to abstract. 

 

 

 

Maybe it lowers your fun -- when I'm trying to actively block an incoming attack and the mechanics for doing so are the same as partially soaking damage, the inherent disconnect is going to lower my fun. 

 

Never mind that you said "no system does X" and someone was immediately able to list off three systems that do X.  If you want to move the goalposts to "no system does that in a way that Daeglan finds fun", then, whatever.

 

those 3 systems still abstract combat. Sorry ALL games systems HAVE to abstract combat. The amount of physics equations required to do it realistically would grind a game to a halt. 

Reflect does allow you to ACTIVELY block an incoming attack. You spend 3 strain and block an amount of damage equal to 2+the number of times you have the talent. You perform an out of turn incidental spend 3 strain and damage is blocked. No die roll needed. 

[MaxKilljoy 1,107]

Which just takes us back to a previous page and post -- there's a significant gulf, a vast difference, between "we can't simulate all the physics with dice, but we're going to do our best to make things feel right" on one hand, and "a roll or two represents a whole chunk of the fight, drop some dice and then make up what happened" on the other. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

Which just takes us back to a previous page and post -- there's a significant gulf, a vast difference, between "we can't simulate all the physics with dice, but we're going to do our best to make things feel right" on one hand, and "a roll or two represents a whole chunk of the fight, drop some dice and then make up what happened" on the other. 

Sure. and every time you add a die roll you slow things down. By ALOT. And I see nothing that is superior about adding a die roll just to have a die roll. That is lame. 

[Kilcannon 177]

So superior means you get the extra advantage on the second weapon if it gets activated by the original dice pool?

Also does paired need to be on both weapons to work or only the primary weapon?

[Werewyvernx 195]

So superior means you get the extra advantage on the second weapon if it gets activated by the original dice pool?

Also does paired need to be on both weapons to work or only the primary weapon?

 

Yes.

 

Both, as stated in its entry.

[Kael 1,865]

 

Which just takes us back to a previous page and post -- there's a significant gulf, a vast difference, between "we can't simulate all the physics with dice, but we're going to do our best to make things feel right" on one hand, and "a roll or two represents a whole chunk of the fight, drop some dice and then make up what happened" on the other. 

Sure. and every time you add a die roll you slow things down. By ALOT. And I see nothing that is superior about adding a die roll just to have a die roll. That is lame. 

 

 

I would also like to say I see no reason of adding a die roll to fix something that is easily fixed by just changing how you describe the action taking place.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

Dice rolls in this system are largely (nearly always) reserved for actions. Maneuvers hardly ever get rolls, and incidentals never get rolls. Double for out-of-turn incidentals. This is designed in such a way as to move things along as expediently as possible, with one dice pool roll per turn. Instead of checking for balance, then checking for shooting, then checking for defense against an attack of opportunity, it is all rolled up in one pool.

 

So this mechanic is just in the spirit of the rest of the game rules. Every mechanic in every RPG is both a simulation and an abstraction; it can't help but be so. It's just that the method of abstraction differs from system to system.

[PrinceShaar 1]

I had a question regarding a different weapon quality, one of my players will be dual wielding Ancient Swords, both with the Defensive 1 quality, seeing as this is a quality that doesn't activate during an attack, would you essentially have Defensive 2?

Also another question, when attempting to attack, and you aren't trying to attack with both weapons does the difficulty still get upgraded? Is there still the penalty because 'You are holding two weapons making it difficult to attack?'

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

1. Defensive 1 doesn't stack with itself. I believe you can find that answer in the Edge of the Empire forums, in the pinned "Developer Answered Questions" thread. You'd be better off wielding something else in your other hand, like maybe something with a balanced hilt or the superior quality. Make it your leading weapon when you attack, score the second hit a little easier.

2. Only when you are attempting to hit with both weapons do you increase the combat check difficulty. You can hold another one-handed weapon just fine without attempting to use it. The penalty is for trying to use two weapons, not for simply holding two weapons. It's all balanced though; you can't stack Defensives so there's nothing very munchkinesque about holding two weapons. It's really a utility/stylistic choice. Nice to have options, y'know?

[PrinceShaar 1]

Ah right, thanks man. That's great.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

 

I am not a practiced dual wielder iRL or anything.. but I am pretty sure that in most cases the primary weapon is the larger, heavier weapon and that is the one that is primarily used for the attacking. The secondary, lighter weapon is then used when an opening presents itself or to offer some additional defensive capabilities. So the suggestion to 'lead' with your offhand is fine except that still doesn't fit with how I would expect or envision dual wielding to work. This would be akin to flailing your dagger around and then only attacking with your full sized sword occasionally, while I see it happening the other way around. I am not viewing it from main hand and off hand but from the perspective of which weapon are you attempting to hit with primarily and which are you using occasionally, when the opportunity presents itself (ie: enough advantage)

Being trained in Fillipino Martial Arts (Kali, Escrima, and Silat specfically), I have learned to use my "Main" or "Lead" hand to clear a path for my "Deadly" hand to attack. I'm talking Stick (Main) and Knife (Off) normally, but can be Double Knives or Double Sticks, but can also be applied to any weapon really (that can be used one handed). The principle is the same for many weapons.

In fact, the system doesn't take into account the "Offhand" generally being used for Defense unless an opening (i.e. 2 Advantage) occurs. 

 

 

I agree. I have a character which dual wields two lightsabers of equal size. There is nothing that says one has to be larger than the other. In fact the core book specifically says you roll the skill with the higher difficulty, if they are both the same then you just roll that one.

 

For me the issue is not so much what happens to the second weapon as how can I use the off hand weapon to block or parry while I attack with my main one?

[ApocalypseZero 224]

If you are simply employing Sword and Shield tactics just using Two Weapons, then nothing changes from a Single Weapon attack. In this system, you could conceivably building a "Defensive Secondary" and just hold it for Defensive purposes.

 

The system can really look boring if you simply color everything in individual motions. The nature of the game is Narration. Narrate everything, including combat. Having a Secondary that is pure Defense can still be narrated with flair and style in a way that shows the Secondary as effective. Often in real martial arts, one weapon "clears the line" for the second to hit the target. That can be beautifully narrated.

 

 

And I find it funny that I'm being pulled back to this thread. I just started teaching my Lightsaber Combatives class in the Indy area.

[bilosta 9]

Sorry for interrupt,  in books two weapon combat is describe how to make dice pool. But it seems that it it is case that you attack one target. What is if you want to use two blaster pistol to attack two different target? haw you calculate difficulty? 

Edited March 8, 2016 by bilosta

[Moribund 23]

You always use the higher difficulty and increase it by one. It isn't clear how you are supposed to handle Defense and similar effects.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Sorry for interrupt,  in books two weapon combat is describe how to make dice pool. But it seems that it it is case that you attack one target. What is if you want to use two blaster pistol to attack two different target? haw you calculate difficulty? 

Per RAW, you can't attack two separate targets when attacking with two weapons, be they blaster pistols, lightsabers, vibroknives, or rolling pins.

 

The sourcebook Fly Casual has a 25XP talent in the Gunslinger tree that is devoted to allowing a PC to attack multiple targets when wielding two pistols.

[DiegoOnasi 43]

 

Sorry for interrupt,  in books two weapon combat is describe how to make dice pool. But it seems that it it is case that you attack one target. What is if you want to use two blaster pistol to attack two different target? haw you calculate difficulty? 

Per RAW, you can't attack two separate targets when attacking with two weapons, be they blaster pistols, lightsabers, vibroknives, or rolling pins.

 

The sourcebook Fly Casual has a 25XP talent in the Gunslinger tree that is devoted to allowing a PC to attack multiple targets when wielding two pistols.

 

 

Awesome I have been looking for something in the core books that clears this up. Think I may house rule that you can hit a second target for half damage of the first attack on a Triumph.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

You always use the higher difficulty and increase it by one. 

 

Clarification: this is how autofire works, but (as Dono outlined) not attacking with two weapons.

 

Firing at two targets simultaneously is improbably difficult, and even in settings where it is appropriate (IMO, Star Wars joins The Matrix and western gunslinger flics here), it requires some level of bad-assery or specialized training. Hence, the Spitfire talent!

[bilosta 9]

Thanks to all

[Zar 152]

I don't see a reason why you can't use the accuracy bonus from the Shoto despite leading with the lightsaber.  You are still upgrading the difficulty.  It makes sense that the shoto makes it easier to overcome that extra difficulty because it's accurate.  If you roll a success with the accurate die but don't get advantages then the shoto helped some but still didn't connect.

[Zar 152]

At the same time, I've already ruled that you don't  get to accumulate accuracy dice.  So two shotos wouldn't give you 2 blue dice.   But that's my hypocrisy at work.  

[Moribund 23]

You always use the higher difficulty and increase it by one.

Clarification: this is how autofire works, but (as Dono outlined) not attacking with two weapons.

Firing at two targets simultaneously is improbably difficult, and even in settings where it is appropriate (IMO, Star Wars joins The Matrix and western gunslinger flics here), it requires some level of bad-assery or specialized training. Hence, the Spitfire talent!

Huh, I assumed since you independently determined the difficulty pools, the attacks could independently target. I'm forced to concede that your interpretation is consistent with a strict reading of the rules and is strongly implied by the existence of the Spitfire talent.

The implementation of Spitfire is pretty bizarre though. If you shoot a mook at close range, you get to hit a nemesis with a personal deflector field at range? It gets even worse if you have light repeating blasters, or something else with Autofire. Or does combined check mean something else?

Edited March 8, 2016 by Moribund

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

 

 

You always use the higher difficulty and increase it by one.

Clarification: this is how autofire works, but (as Dono outlined) not attacking with two weapons.

Firing at two targets simultaneously is improbably difficult, and even in settings where it is appropriate (IMO, Star Wars joins The Matrix and western gunslinger flics here), it requires some level of bad-assery or specialized training. Hence, the Spitfire talent!

Huh, I assumed since you independently determined the difficulty pools, the attacks could independently target. I'm forced to concede that your interpretation is consistent with a strict reading of the rules and is strongly implied by the existence of the Spitfire talent.

The implementation of Spitfire is pretty bizarre though. If you shoot a mook at close range, you get to hit a nemesis with a personal deflector field at range? It gets even worse if you have light repeating blasters, or something else with Autofire. Or does combined check mean something else?

 

There's a whole thread over on the EotE portion of the boards that "discusses" the Spitfire talent.

 

To sum up, by strictly worded RAW you'd be correct (target a minion at short range, use Spitfire to auto-hit a Nemesis with various defensive boosts at medium range with the off-hand pistol), but a number of posters saw such as extremely cheesy and thus would disallow said tactic in their games.  There's been no official dev clarification (that I know of at least), so YMMV on the perceived cheese factor of Spitfire.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

The implementation of Spitfire is pretty bizarre though. If you shoot a mook at close range, you get to hit a nemesis with a personal deflector field at range? It gets even worse if you have light repeating blasters, or something else with Autofire. Or does combined check mean something else?

Spitfire relegates itself to checks made with two weapons, which itself is limited to Ranged (Light) (and of course one-handed melee) checks. It isn't as broken as autofire is, and it's a bottom-tier talent, so I say, what's the big deal.

If it gets to where the GM thinks it's out of hand (easy hit on the nemesis with a dinky pistol, hooray), just use the Imperial Valor talent or the squad rules.

Edited March 9, 2016 by awayputurwpn