Two Weapon Fighting questions

[BeastmanJenkins 4]

I know this topic has probably been beat to death, but I just can't find the answers I'm looking for.

 

For the two weapon fighting, if you are using a shoto in your offhand, do you still get the accuracy boost die added in to your combat check?

 

It would seem silly not to, cause that would be the entire point of the shoto even being a thing, but I've been surprised before. Please help.

[ApocalypseZero 224]

Offhand Weapon Qualities do NOT count unless that weapon is activated. Any Qualities that add Dice to the Check must do so before rolling. Therefore, Accurate is worthless on the Offhand. 

 

This essentially sets up the Main hand Weapon to be an Accurate and Advantage boosting weapon, with the Offhand being the Damage and Crit bearing weapon. Advantage from the Offhand is added once the weapon is activated. 

[Kilcannon 177]

So if you still wanted your shoto in your off hand could you roll your Saber without accurate. Get 2 advantage and activate the second weapon being the shots and then roll a boost die for chance of more advantages or successes?

[JP_JP 301]

So if you still wanted your shoto in your off hand could you roll your Saber without accurate. Get 2 advantage and activate the second weapon being the shots and then roll a boost die for chance of more advantages or successes?

 

No, you don't roll dices from your off-hand after the initial roll. So Accurate on the off-hand is useless.

 

That ruling is pretty obvious with the Blaster Actuating Module attachment on pistol, which adds a Setback dice to Ranged(L) rolls. If you have that attachment on your off-hand and roll 1 succes and 2 advantages, trigger your off-hand then roll your Setback to get 1 Fail ; how do you adjucate this ? you now miss ?

 

So like ApocalypseZero said, only advantages given from Superior or Curved Hilt are added to  your roll after you activate your off-hand hit.

Hope it helps.

[ShiKage 282]

While I agree that the interpretations shown here for the rules are correct. I am with the original poster in that it does seem an odd way to handle the system. Historically, it has been the general practice that your primary weapon be the larger of the weapons and the offhand is usually a smaller utility weapon. In part this would be because your primary hand is simply stronger and better able to wield the larger weapon with any accuracy. But also because you would primarily attack with the larger, more effective weapon and when an appropriate opening presented itself you would then take advantage of it more easily with a quicker, smaller weapon.

 

However, this system would favor reversing those roles.. going around with a lighter weaker weapon in your dominant hand and mostly attacking with it while only swinging the theoretically slower, heavier, and larger weapon with your weaker hand and when you see an opening. Now, admittedly, weight is less of a concern with a weapon like a lightsaber but the general principle still stands that this system favors what in general be a far more awkward and ineffective way of wielding these weapons.

[ApocalypseZero 224]

Combat is a fluid dynamic and not a static, one swing per die roll. There can actually be a whole lot going on for one die roll. What is done for Two Weapon Combat is bit restrictive, but also cuts down on crazy powergaming. 

 

The idea mechanically seems odd. Again, put the impression that the Accurate Weapon, usually a lighter, smaller weapon will be the primary. In real world thought, I liken it to Fillipino Martial Arts, were the Lead Hand is usually in front to clear, and the Deadly Hand is usually in back with the more dangerous weapon. (Stick and Knife are common.) 

 

One of the ideas of the Dice Mechanics is the Cancellations. Take that to a Combat Visual. If, for example, a pool results in 3 successes, 2 failures, 4 advantages, and 1 threat; you can narrate the action from that. 3 Successes cancel the 2 Failures, netting 1 Success or Hit on Target. Narratively, that could have been 3 swings, with the last connecting on target. If we are using two weapons, and the Primary was the smaller, accurate (and yet more fitting for an offhand weapon), then that was the one that hit.Sure, we have a Right and Left, but Primary and Secondary and not locked to Right and Left. So, in said example, 3 Swings, bigger weapon swings twice and misses, smaller (Primary) weapon darts in and connects. Now, we see the next results of Advantage/Threat and that leaves use 3 Advantages. Using 2 to activate the second weapon merely means that the Primary Hit left an opening for the Secondary Weapon to swing in and hit. 

 

The Idea of Two Weapon Combat can be tricky with Mechanics. Primary, Secondary, Right Hand, Left Hand, Bigger Weapon, Smaller Weapon, etc. The game doesn't call out anything but Primary and Secondary. Primary can be the Offhand essentially. It's all in how you want to perceive it. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by ApocalypseZero

[Werewyvernx 195]

I believe the real reason dice from the "off-hand" aren't added is because of things like taking two Novaviper blasters, giving them the holographic sight from SoR, modding it, increasing their HP with Tinkerer, then giving them laser sights and superior. That would be two Accurate 3 weapons. That would be 6 boost dice for two weapon combat if the rules were different. The primary weapon would automatically add an advantage. If you also hit, it would add another advantage. If your target was at short range, you could have aimed once as an incidental, and aimed again as a maneuver. For two more boost dice. Then you spend 2 advantage to hit with the secondary weapon. You trigger the advantage gain from its superior and laser sight qualities, gaining back the 2 you just spent. Even with a moderate initial dice pool, say YYG, you would be able to add EIGHT boost dice. With current RAW, you could only add 5, which is still really helpful.

[ShiKage 282]

I am fully on board with the not including dice and such from the offhand/secondary weapon in the roll.. that would make things get way out of hand way too fast. Instead, what I think would be beneficial is if the gear and rules were designed in such a way that it made using the smaller weapon offhand more effective/beneficial. Such as smaller weapons having a trait making them require fewer advantage to activate when two-weapon fighting. Something that doesn't benefit them except when used as a secondary weapon and making them the better choice for such uses.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

You can always lead with your off-hand to get that die, it's really a matter of tactics. If, for example, you have an opponent that is very difficult to hit (several ranks of Adversary) you can choose to lead with your larger sabre that does more damage but has less of a chance to activate your second weapon. Or you can accept potentially doing less damage on a hit but increase the possibility of getting enough Advantages to activate the second hit. It's not a problem it's a feature. In either case you still get the Defensive Quality of the Shoto so it's still worth having it even if you loose the Accuracy more often than not.

Edited January 28, 2016 by FuriousGreg

[ApocalypseZero 224]

Stop thinking Main Hand = Primary, Offhand = Secondary and think Primary = First Weapon and Secondary = Second Weapon and alot of confusion will be clear. Maybe we should start changing the terms we use as well. This system doesn't have an Offhand. 

 

Primary can be the "First Weapon", "Lead Weapon", "The One I Want to Hit With"

Secondary can be seen as "Second Weapon", "The One That is a Bonus".

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

Primary can be the "First Weapon", "Lead Weapon", "The One I Want to Hit With"

Secondary can be seen as "Second Weapon", "The One That is a Bonus".

I agree. This system could have used better language choices in some places for describing mechanics.

[ShiKage 282]

I am not a practiced dual wielder iRL or anything.. but I am pretty sure that in most cases the primary weapon is the larger, heavier weapon and that is the one that is primarily used for the attacking. The secondary, lighter weapon is then used when an opening presents itself or to offer some additional defensive capabilities. So the suggestion to 'lead' with your offhand is fine except that still doesn't fit with how I would expect or envision dual wielding to work. This would be akin to flailing your dagger around and then only attacking with your full sized sword occasionally, while I see it happening the other way around. I am not viewing it from main hand and off hand but from the perspective of which weapon are you attempting to hit with primarily and which are you using occasionally, when the opportunity presents itself (ie: enough advantage)

[ApocalypseZero 224]

I am not a practiced dual wielder iRL or anything.. but I am pretty sure that in most cases the primary weapon is the larger, heavier weapon and that is the one that is primarily used for the attacking. The secondary, lighter weapon is then used when an opening presents itself or to offer some additional defensive capabilities. So the suggestion to 'lead' with your offhand is fine except that still doesn't fit with how I would expect or envision dual wielding to work. This would be akin to flailing your dagger around and then only attacking with your full sized sword occasionally, while I see it happening the other way around. I am not viewing it from main hand and off hand but from the perspective of which weapon are you attempting to hit with primarily and which are you using occasionally, when the opportunity presents itself (ie: enough advantage)

Being trained in Fillipino Martial Arts (Kali, Escrima, and Silat specfically), I have learned to use my "Main" or "Lead" hand to clear a path for my "Deadly" hand to attack. I'm talking Stick (Main) and Knife (Off) normally, but can be Double Knives or Double Sticks, but can also be applied to any weapon really (that can be used one handed). The principle is the same for many weapons.

 

In fact, the system doesn't take into account the "Offhand" generally being used for Defense unless an opening (i.e. 2 Advantage) occurs. 

[Kael 1,865]

It's come up before and a few people with weapons training have mentioned that when you do two weapon fighting there is no such thing as main hand/off hand. You learn to attack and defend with both weapons as is appropriate for the situation. So the lead weapon doesn't have to be the bigger weapon.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

I am not a practiced dual wielder iRL or anything.. but I am pretty sure that in most cases the primary weapon is the larger, heavier weapon and that is the one that is primarily used for the attacking. 

I fight with Rapier and dagger sometimes and the term Primary isn't part of the vernacular it's just a RPG mechanical term. In any case attacks can be lead by either the Dagger or Rapier so it's really a matter of tactical choice. It's true that the Rapier is the lead for a majority of attacks because of it's threat range but there are many moves in which you use it to lock up an opponents weapon to create an opening for a quick strike with your dagger.

Edited January 28, 2016 by FuriousGreg

[TalosX 184]

As others have said, the Accurate 1 from an off-handed shoto doesn't effect the attack roll.  However, we know the shoto was a preferred off-hand weapon.  So I've made a house-rule that allows a Shoto in the off-hand to trade it's Accurate 1 for a more useful Defensive 1 trait.  This gives shoto some appeal as an off-hand weapon.  It's also interesting to note that a dual-shoto style would benefit from both the Accurate 1 and Defensive 1 bonuses.  Since Ataru's side-bar specifically called out dual-wielding shoto's, it seems a fair change.

[tuco 13]

I'm working on a character right now and toying with a two shoto fighter.  I like the idea of it offering either Accurate 1 or Defensive 1 depending on how you use it, but I'm not sure I could get the GM to agree.  

[BeastmanJenkins 4]

As others have said, the Accurate 1 from an off-handed shoto doesn't effect the attack roll.  However, we know the shoto was a preferred off-hand weapon.  So I've made a house-rule that allows a Shoto in the off-hand to trade it's Accurate 1 for a more useful Defensive 1 trait.  This gives shoto some appeal as an off-hand weapon.  It's also interesting to note that a dual-shoto style would benefit from both the Accurate 1 and Defensive 1 bonuses.  Since Ataru's side-bar specifically called out dual-wielding shoto's, it seems a fair change.

That's actually a really solid idea.

 

 

Stop thinking Main Hand = Primary, Offhand = Secondary and think Primary = First Weapon and Secondary = Second Weapon and alot of confusion will be clear. Maybe we should start changing the terms we use as well. This system doesn't have an Offhand. 

 

Primary can be the "First Weapon", "Lead Weapon", "The One I Want to Hit With"

Secondary can be seen as "Second Weapon", "The One That is a Bonus".

 

I think this is the key. If the player wants that accurate boost die, then lead with the shoto and bat clean up with the "main hand" larger weapon. Its weird and makes my brain hurt in a "does not compute" sort of way, but what must be, must be.

[BeastmanJenkins 4]

Thanks for the input everyone, this has been super helpful

[BeastmanJenkins 4]

I'm working on a character right now and toying with a two shoto fighter.  I like the idea of it offering either Accurate 1 or Defensive 1 depending on how you use it, but I'm not sure I could get the GM to agree.  

 

If you stayed with a regular lightsaber in your offhand, you could attach the curve hilt and get the defensive that way, plus an extra advantage engaged against a single enemy, which could help with hitting more.

[Kael 1,865]

 

As others have said, the Accurate 1 from an off-handed shoto doesn't effect the attack roll.  However, we know the shoto was a preferred off-hand weapon.  So I've made a house-rule that allows a Shoto in the off-hand to trade it's Accurate 1 for a more useful Defensive 1 trait.  This gives shoto some appeal as an off-hand weapon.  It's also interesting to note that a dual-shoto style would benefit from both the Accurate 1 and Defensive 1 bonuses.  Since Ataru's side-bar specifically called out dual-wielding shoto's, it seems a fair change.

That's actually a really solid idea.

 

 

Stop thinking Main Hand = Primary, Offhand = Secondary and think Primary = First Weapon and Secondary = Second Weapon and alot of confusion will be clear. Maybe we should start changing the terms we use as well. This system doesn't have an Offhand. 

 

Primary can be the "First Weapon", "Lead Weapon", "The One I Want to Hit With"

Secondary can be seen as "Second Weapon", "The One That is a Bonus".

 

I think this is the key. If the player wants that accurate boost die, then lead with the shoto and bat clean up with the "main hand" larger weapon. Its weird and makes my brain hurt in a "does not compute" sort of way, but what must be, must be.

 

 

I think it does compute ..... .if we toss out everything previous RPG's have taught us about two weapon fighting. From people with experience in two weapon fighting there isn't an off hand or a primary hand. You have two weapons and you're expected to attack and defend with both. And you're trained to know when to use one weapon over the other. For balance reasons most gaming systems come up with this whole primary/off hand thing. But that doesn't seem to be a real representation of how two weapon fighting really works. 

 

I think it only gets weird if we insist on viewing the matter from the perspective of how rpg's have done as opposed to what actual fighters have told us. 

[Kael 1,865]

Also combat in this system is narrative and represents a lot more than just strike and miss. Each roll represents a minute of action. That means that there is nothing that says that the shoto was the first weapon you swung, only that it was the first weapon to do damage. You can describe the action in any number of ways that indicate that you swung the bigger weapon first and then followed up with the smaller weapon only to land another strike from the bigger weapon. 

[BeastmanJenkins 4]

 

 

As others have said, the Accurate 1 from an off-handed shoto doesn't effect the attack roll.  However, we know the shoto was a preferred off-hand weapon.  So I've made a house-rule that allows a Shoto in the off-hand to trade it's Accurate 1 for a more useful Defensive 1 trait.  This gives shoto some appeal as an off-hand weapon.  It's also interesting to note that a dual-shoto style would benefit from both the Accurate 1 and Defensive 1 bonuses.  Since Ataru's side-bar specifically called out dual-wielding shoto's, it seems a fair change.

That's actually a really solid idea.

 

 

Stop thinking Main Hand = Primary, Offhand = Secondary and think Primary = First Weapon and Secondary = Second Weapon and alot of confusion will be clear. Maybe we should start changing the terms we use as well. This system doesn't have an Offhand. 

 

Primary can be the "First Weapon", "Lead Weapon", "The One I Want to Hit With"

Secondary can be seen as "Second Weapon", "The One That is a Bonus".

 

I think this is the key. If the player wants that accurate boost die, then lead with the shoto and bat clean up with the "main hand" larger weapon. Its weird and makes my brain hurt in a "does not compute" sort of way, but what must be, must be.

 

 

I think it does compute ..... .if we toss out everything previous RPG's have taught us about two weapon fighting. From people with experience in two weapon fighting there isn't an off hand or a primary hand. You have two weapons and you're expected to attack and defend with both. And you're trained to know when to use one weapon over the other. For balance reasons most gaming systems come up with this whole primary/off hand thing. But that doesn't seem to be a real representation of how two weapon fighting really works. 

 

I think it only gets weird if we insist on viewing the matter from the perspective of how rpg's have done as opposed to what actual fighters have told us. 

 

 

I completely agree. Expanding the perception past rpg mechanic to real world two weapon fighting is the tough part. It all makes sense though and I feel a lot better about potentially playing a two weapon fighter and/or having someone in the group play a two weapon fighter.

[The Grand Falloon 1,718]

I think it does compute ..... .if we toss out everything previous RPG's have taught us about two weapon fighting.

This is a good thing to do anyway.  A lot of games recently are getting away from the idea that a second weapon doubles your attack rate.  Even D&D, actually!

[Kilcannon 177]

So narative is that my two weapon fighters always swings his heavier weapon and misses and then swings his lighter weapon and hits. Then if he rolls enough advantage he activates his heavier weapon to continue its fluid motion and hitsee on the back swing motion. Now it's realistic and fits game mechanic