Jainas Light vs Admiral Montferrat

[LazorBeems 198]

One last thing while we're all here so we can put a nice little bow on this:

 

We're all thumbs up that a ship with Disengaged Fire Control would not be able to attack a Monty ship going speed 3+, yes?

 

(Text from the card: Disengaged Fire Control - When declaring the target of an attack, you cannot choose a target against whom the attack would be obstructed.)

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Now now, you can't wrap it up...


Which Cannot supersedes the other...

Say Jaina's Light is the one with Disengaged Fire Control....

 

 

Cannot target Obstruction, and Cannot be obstructed...  We'd need an order of precedence for the cannot triggers there....

 

 

(Technically, I think we would have it in the Golden Rule, if they said Cannot is absolute for upgrade card effects...  Not for Critical Effects...  But instead, its just "Card Effects".)\

 

 

 

Honestly, I think for this one, I'm just not being paid enough to draw out the logic path diagram...  

Edited January 29, 2016 by Drasnighta

[Green Knight 9,746]

It's a wrap all right.

This new conundrum is interesting, however!

[LazorBeems 198]

Oh lord, I did not intend to open up another can of worms lol.

 

I agree with Dras' initial statement: go with the simple on JL.  I think the easiest ruling is that whenever JL interacts with anything that mentions obstruction, it is overruled always and regardless.

 

However, if you wanted a deeper reading of the rules, I think there is an argument to be made against JL ignoring DFC (right or wrong as it may be).

 

The question is: when in the order of events during an attack is DFC applied?  From the rules guide, step one of an attack:

 

Declare Target: The attacker declares the defender and the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship, the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is possible and to determine if it is obstructed.

 

DFC takes place when "declaring a target," but which declaration are we talking about?  If we follow through the step in order, we are first asked to declare a defender and hull zone full stop.  If DFC enters effect at that declaration, we have yet to officially measure for obstruction.  At that point, we resolve DFC which asks us: "would [that attack] be obstructed"?  Not is the attack obstructed, would it be?  If we then determine that, yes, it would be obstructed, then the attack is null because the target is not valid due to DFC.  JL never has a chance to resolve because we've never actually moved on to the step in the process that has us officially determine obstruction.  No attack is being obstructed because there was no valid attack to make in the first place.

 

Now, that being said, I would argue that, in fact, everything done during the "Declare Target" step should be looked at as a single action for the purposes of effects (though it reality it is made up of many small actions undertaken by the player) because it produces a single result: the target.  Essentially, think of those steps as all happening simultaneously.  As soon as we measure obstruction for any reason, we must apply JL.  Once the target is declared, we check it against DFC.  Because the result produced by the single, simultaneous action(s) of the "Declare Target" step have produced a result of "not obstructed," then DFC is not applied.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

I think that the Cannot's stack. You go with upgrade card first and then damage card second

[LazorBeems 198]

I think that the Cannot's stack. You go with upgrade card first and then damage card second

 

Can you show you work on that?  Not saying it's wrong, but can you demonstrate how you drew the conclusion that they stack?

 

When you say stack, I think of Magic.  If that's what you're referencing, are you arguing that DFC supersedes JL?  Because that's how I'd interpret your statement.  If DFC is added onto the stack second and last, it is then the first to be resolved, meaning it cancels out JL.

 

Is that what you're arguing?  Just want to make sure I have an accurate understanding of your position. 

[Lyraeus 4,759]

So the first thing you have to look at is if you are obstructed. Jaina's Light cannot be obstructed so you will not, telnet you see if you are obstructed for the purposes of the damage card, once again Jaina's Light cannot be obstructed.

[DerErlkoenig 975]

So the first thing you have to look at is if you are obstructed. Jaina's Light cannot be obstructed so you will not, telnet you see if you are obstructed for the purposes of the damage card, once again Jaina's Light cannot be obstructed.

That's the way I read it.