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Giledhil

Firepower : has FFG lost control over the game?

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Their dice killed them.

*quick math* You do realize the odds of blanking out on 3 green dice are just under 25%, right? Not exactly a statistical anomaly for a 2-dice ship to get the last damage in.

Edit: With four green dice, it's 15 percent, which is still pretty common as far as statistics go.

The thing about complaining about dice is, how did the game get to the point where that one bad roll completely ruined your entire game. Can you say with confidence that you made absolutely every decision up until that point 100% correctly? Or did you screw up somewhere along the way and now the "dice" are punishing you for it?

 

If it's the first scenario, yeah, sorry, a statistical anomaly found you.

If it's the second, it's up to you to learn from it, fly again, and get better.

 

Top-level players don't get there by writing off every game where a roll didn't go as planned. They do it by doing everything in their power to make sure they win even if a roll goes bad.

 

Complain less. Fly more.

I love the fact that Paul Heaver won worlds for 3 consecutive times to use as proof that skill trumps dice.

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As a long time gamer, and avid studier of game design, I don't know how this isn't just an understood thing. As I put it, it's a law of game design that states: "For any game that has expanding content, power creep will occur."

This game has power creep. Period. It follows that law. It's not as apparent until you go to get someone new into the game and they ask you how to build a list and you look through their upgrades like wow... I can't do anything with these. It's natural to have that. What's important is to control it's speed. Which they do a fairly good job of, though it's slipping a little as of late.

I would not call it Power Creep. There is more optimal way to use a ship, but I don't consider it power creep, or everybody would just fly the same thing. But the game has certainly evolved a lot since Wave 1.

 

But, it is getting harder to sell the game when you have to tell a new player that if they want to bring Vader into a tournament, they'll have to buy that 100$ ship too that they might never get to use. They could do without the Raider of course, but in that case there would be a better way to spend those points.

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 The Inquisitor has a good ability but no ship is good enough that it is seen "99%" of the time.

 

he's mildly amused

Corran_tfp.jpg

 

Knave and Blackmoon pilots look at A'baht, all covered in a layer of dust

 

 
GIT GUD

I love the fact that Paul Heaver won worlds for 3 consecutive times to use as proof that skill trumps dice.

and every time took the least dice-relevant list possible. what a coincidence

Edited by Warpman

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GW used to have a grip on it, but then they bought their own hype. 

 

Warmachine was a product of it's own hype right from it's inception.  I'm sorry but Page 5?  Come on.  That shows a game designer with his head so far up his own ass he thinks his eyes are brown.  I don't think I've ever met a Warmachine player who didn't make me instantly want to punch them in the face the moment they started talking about their game system and how revolutionary it is.

GW never had a grip on it. The company and game designers made incredibly deficient games and universes.

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Two was standard in Wave 1. It ceased to be by Wave 2: two dice ships then had something else going for them: price/numbers, secondary weapons or abilities.

 

Two red's problem is that it struggles with mitigation. Bizarrely agility counterintuitively makes it easier to dodge a ton of shots than fewer bigger ones. Likewise the armoured targets like B-wings or Decimators are more vunerable to a thousand cuts than equivalent points of heavy fire. That's one of the setbacks of a coupled accuracy and damage mechanic.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if a future X-Wing incorporated different colours of attack dice, say, ones with multiple hits but still cancellable by single evade dice representing inaccurate but powerful attacks, or more accurate dice with symbols that evades cancel before hits but which deal no damage for high accuracy low damage.

 

An important thing to remember when thinking about firepower is price. Two dice is fine in the <20 pt region because you'll probably have swarm numbers. Once you get into pricer ships the number of ships you have goes down. You're now using three dicers but you have fewer of them.

 

Three dicers are better at dealing with agility because they can spike through it, but conversely three dice doesn't come at half again the cost of two dice: the game is balanced such that 100 pts of 2 dicers is generally going to have more dice in total than the equivalent in three dicers, all other factors being equal. A Z-95 swarm will shred a Lambda faster than its weight in X-wings, but those X-wings will have an easier time nailing an Aggressor (assuming they've got it in arc).

What I'm getting at is once you move out of the teens in points your two dicer needs to have another trick up its sleeve or you're falling behind in firepower. This has been true since Wave 1 with the X-wing TIE fighter comparison, and was the reason the TIE advanced was dead in the water for so long (it cost the same as an X-wing but had no tricks).

 

If you've got two dice and don't have numbers, you're behind on raw firepower and need something to make up for it. For the A-wing, TAP and arguably the TIE/fo incredible maneuverability helps: an A-wing that can easily hug Range 1 will do more damage than a Z-95 and the same damage as an X-wing that ends up at Range 2 or worse the whole time. The unloaded TIE bomber has a ton of health for very few points (the loaded TIE bomber fights mainly with secondaries and thus I don't consider it a true 2 dicer). Even then, you're still base cost 15 and 16.

 

Some of these tricks are support, such as Howlrunner, Youngster and Cracken. Some of these tricks push the ship to a pseudo 2.5 dice: a 3 die attack that doesn't always trigger.

 

Those tricks you refer to as firepower creep, but they've been a fact of the game since Wave 1: Backstabber and Mithel become three dicers if they pull off an activation condition. More recently, we have Wave 6's N'dru Suhlak for the Z-95. The recent TIE/fos have Zeta Leader (three in exchange for stress), Omega Ace (critical hits) and Omega Leader (prevents modification when locked). Jake and Tycho have abilities that heighten their maneuverability, making Range 1 shots easier. The TAP's Inquistor has three effective dice but can't trigger the Range 1 bonus that super agile ships like his usually rely on.

 

 

To summarise, if you're relying on 2 dice guns you need numbers and have since Wave 1. Expensive 2 dicers (and by a 2 dicer I mean a ship that relies on that weapon, not a ship that has it as a backup for a more heavily used secondary) put you behind on damage. This is why expensive 2 die ships without support abilities have tricks to improve their firepower through extra dice or improved positioning: they allow the ship to keep up in firepower/point.
 

 

And we arrived at the point where "fixing" a ship by adding more HP (T65 and its new über-shield droid) doesn't even work, for what I read here.

 

Integrated Astromech brings the X-wing up to the B-wing's level. People are convincing themselves it isn't enough because they want a flashy fix like the TIE defender and TIE advanced got. It's just confirmation bias.

Edited by Blue Five

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Two red's problem is that it struggles with mitigation. Bizarrely agility counterintuitively makes it easier to dodge a ton of shots than fewer bigger ones. Likewise the armoured targets like B-wings or Decimators are more vunerable to a thousand cuts than equivalent points of heavy fire. That's one of the setbacks of a coupled accuracy and damage mechanic.

 

Maybe this game lacks a "stacking" mechanic for group attack, like in Blood Bowl :

"Action : focus fire

In you have an enemy ship in your arc at 1-3, and an ally has also the same target in its arc at 1-3, take a weapons disable token instead of firing. Your ally then adds 1 to its Attack value this round on this target. "

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And we arrived at the point where "fixing" a ship by adding more HP (T65 and its new über-shield droid) doesn't even work, for what I read here.

 

Integrated Astromech brings the X-wing up to the B-wing's level. People are convincing themselves it isn't enough because they want a flashy fix like the TIE defender and TIE advanced got. It's just confirmation bias.

That's why I added "for what I read here"; the x-wing seems OK to me, the only think I dream of now is a way to take that integrated astro AND the guidance chip, and go blow up a death star.

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C-3PO's dominance ushered in the need for Autothrusters

Not exactly, no. Ships with native Boost relied on not being shot at for their survivability. The Falcon made it so that you could _never_ have a shot and not be shot at. This meant that in _Wave 2_ (before C3PO came out), Squints had a very hard time doing their actual job when the Falcon was on the board.

The other problem: The Falcon was the first Rebel ship that could routinely earn its points back in a match between players of roughly even skill. So you started seeing a _lot_ if it just when the Squint launched. And since the Falcon has _always_ struggled against a Swarm... Yeah. It was a double problem. :)

In retrospect, ships with natural Boost should have had the out-of-arc bonus built into the design of Boost. But you'd have had to redesign a couple other cards (Engine Upgrade and Daredevil) to make sure that you couldn't give that bonus to any/every other ship as well.

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Nah it just needs to be like armada

No crappy green dice, just powerful defensive tokens that don't last under concentrated fire

Cr-90s are right fierce beasties in Armada

That could work too ! I like that.

That way, every ship has a defensive value independent on how many persons shoot at you.

It's a diffreent way to go than the actual "I have Def3, you shoot at me 3 time, I have 3 green dice this turn".

An other option would be having a green dice pool each round, that youn use at your will, like :

" A-wing and A-wing can fire at me tghis round, I have 3 dice (cause I get a TIE with DEF 3).

A-wing shoots first, I choose to use 1 dice (because he has only 2 red) and keep 2 for the x-wing attack".

Edited by Giledhil

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*keeps hoping for the return of Joustwing

You keep hoping for something you just said is bad? Jousting is were only dice matter, mathwinging is the only source of knowledge, and who ever has the hottest dice win. No, no thank you. You didn't play back when 7 TIE swarms won every table because you couldn't reposition. No, this game is in the best state is has been. Jousting take no skill, and for someone that complains about PWT as much as a few other vocal blow hards, it seems odd to want something that is essentially the same dice-fest.

Absolutely this. 2013 final was Biggs walks the Dogs vs Tie Swarm. With the advent if the B-Wing, Rebels started having a chance because before that it was just barely beatable! It was extremely boring too! And pretty much went on until the Phantom came. Which leads directly to PS-Wing where Phantom was totally OP and needed absolute hard counters to beat it.

Wecare now in a state where we have a pretty good variation and where some 10 lists can consistently win tournaments, with more on their way. (Poe/Horn, Heaver's list, Poe/Miranda, Super Dash, Rebel TLT with Stresshog, Normal TLT, Brobots, Palpmobile in 2-3 variations, Crackswarm, VT Palpy, Phantom+X) And then there are still the lists that don't win all the time, but that occasionally do! So really if you say there is no variation then you've got to be blind.

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Integrated Astromech brings the X-wing up to the B-wing's level. People are convincing themselves it isn't enough because they want a flashy fix like the TIE defender and TIE advanced got. It's just confirmation bias.

 

I don't think so.  If you consider that the B-Wing still has BR and access to the systems slot (if you want to spend additional points), there's still not a ton of incentive to take generic X-wings over B-wings.  It's also worth noting that there's an argument to be made that it isn't enough simply by the fact that TLT Ys are both very good at killing them and a better option in the same price range.   So, I think that I'd tend to agree that, in general, the IA isn't going to do the trick by itself at this point. 

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Mary sue inside a Mary sue with 4 more onboard

 

Rebels in a nutshell

 

You mean the writers of Rebels see themselves as freighters/shuttles? :P

 

Nah I mean all the characters are complete and utter failure of writers, filled with Special Snowflake cream.

All the character set is just a bluntest example of quotas on aliens and females...ahem...

 

And then these mary sues are put into "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE" shuttle inside of "OMG MARVEL OF SCIENCE!" ship

 

and given complete losers for adversaries. 

 

p.s. still better than re-telling New Hope TFA though, with their "Like T-65 but better! Like TIE\Ln but better! Like Deathstar BUT BETTER!" bantacrap

 

*stops rambling*

what was the thread about?

Firepower?

 

Need a Dislike Button!

 

 

Good point

 

Different dice.

Simple and workable solution

 

red for blasters, blue for ions, black for ordnance. 

The colour of Attack value indicates the type of dice used.

 

Before Phantoms and Defenders I was hoping we would see Elite dice.  I believe the forums here had kinda settled on the idea of a dice with a double hit and double evade face to represent particularly agile or powerful ships (I think they were Yellow and Black dice).  They were a modification you could put on older ships and were represented in color just like the typical red/greens.  A ship might have 2 red and 1 Yellow or even just 2 Yellow...you get the idea.  A double evade could counter a crit or a hit or a double hit but not 2 evade dice.  I think the double evade replaced a focus for Black dice and the double hit a regular hit on Yellow.

 

There was also a blue dice talked about for ions/control effects.

 

It might not be too late for elite dice...especially if they made it backwards compatable through the mod slot (unused in a lot of ships).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But to the topic at hand- Is Firepower out of Control?

 

No.  The focus of the game is removing the opposing ships from the board, typically through Red Dice.  Most development in the game will then surround the variety of ways you can use that mechanic.  There are other ways to vary/improve red dice, but just adding 1 is pretty simple and has a predictable effect.  Likewise, green dice are just a mitigation of red dice and keep your ship on the board.  It will see a lot of design space too; in fact, it has probably seen more varied design space than reds so far but it is less effective because green dice in general are less effective than red.  That is a design point that will probably not be changed.  Live with it.

 

We also have a very popular game that has a growing competitive scene.  One issue with that is that there is an extra limit in competitive play in that there are 60-90min matches.  One way to improve scoring and competitive play experience is for less games to go to time.  One way to do that is increase damage output.  Is this a design decision?  Maybe, only a few folks can answer that question.

 

I am, overall, more worried about regen and damage mitigation vs. 2 red dice ships.  I feel they need more varied design than activation based damage boosts.  An Awing that could take a second action instead of firing (especially one that it has already taken) would be a beast of a blocker and be a true INTERCEPTOR without doing more damage.  If ties could add a weapons disabled to "focus fire" with their buddies then we would also have a more varied game experience.  There is plenty of design space to enter without just adding more dice: weapons disabled for actions, more blocking, more non combat actions, SUPPORT ABILITIES, Combined effort abilities...

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I don't know that two red dice have really fallen out that much. They've fallen against specific ships: those with three green dice who can stack defense actions. they're still really strong against ships with 0-2 green dice.

 

Between Waves 7 and 8, we've had a whopping 11 new ship classes introduced. Of those ships, only two have three green dice (the TAP and the TIE/fo, both of which pack two red dice). Three more have two green dice (the Khiraxz, the Jumpmaster, and the Assault Shuttle). The rest of the wave, which is more than half of the ships introduced, rely on 0 or 1 green die to protect them.

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the only case I can think of where an old ship was marginalized because a new one came out and did the same thing but better was when the B-Wing replaced the X-Wing and that was all the way back in wave 3.

And even then, it was a case of the new ship doing something the older ship had never been capable of. Had the X-Wing been as good as the TIE Fighter, and the B-Wing was _even better_, it would be power creep. But the X-Wing wasn't, and the B-Wing was not actually designed to fill the same niche the X-Wing had been- it merely got pressed into service.

Actually, that's not a bad metaphor for the entire Rebellion. :)

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And we arrived at the point where "fixing" a ship by adding more HP (T65 and its new über-shield droid) doesn't even work, for what I read here.

 

Integrated Astromech brings the X-wing up to the B-wing's level. People are convincing themselves it isn't enough because they want a flashy fix like the TIE defender and TIE advanced got. It's just confirmation bias.

That's why I added "for what I read here"; the x-wing seems OK to me, the only think I dream of now is a way to take that integrated astro AND the guidance chip, and go blow up a death star.

 

 

The mutual exclusivity of Guidance Chips and Integrated Astromech is utterly tragic.

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Wampa and the Emperor need to get Corran in arc twice to kill him.   No. Matter. What.

and not get into his sights

because otherwise there'll be no more Wampa

 

 

Of course he's shooting at something worth 14 points in that case and will probably need two shots to put him down so he won't be able to shoot next turn. All the while you have another 86 points worth of ships not being shot at by him.

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Advanced has been "fixed" with more firepower, and is no longer a "2 red dice" ship

I think you understate how clever the FFG fix for the Advanced was. High PS Advanced (like Darth MFing Vader!) get that 3rd red "die", yes. But, BUT! Low PS Advanced get Accuracy Correctors- a maximum of 2 hits, and can spend its time and actions tanking damage. No matter how many green dice you're tossing out, you will eventually roll craps. When you do, the TIE Advanced with its 2 red dice and evade tokens will still be there waiting to pounce.

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Getting that 3rd attack die has always been a core part of the game. Consider:

Mauler Mithel:

When attacking at Range 1, roll 1 additional attack die.

Ok. I lied. That's 4 dice. From a TIE Fighter. At 17 points. Compare that to a release version of 17 points of A-Wing.

Backstabber:

When attacking from outside the defender's firing arc, roll 1 additional attack die.

That's a 3rd red die

If you can't get outside a Y-Wing's 80 degree firing arc, you need more practice. 16 points.

Honorable Mention:

Dark Curse

When defending, ships attacking you cannot spend focus tokens or reroll attack dice.

What's that? You took either of the 2 actions available to a Wave 1 Rebel ship? Nope. Dark Curse knows that the best offense is living forever and rolling red dice because no one wants to deal with the frustration of trying to kill you. 16 points. That's less than Green Squadron Pilot _with_ Chardaan Refit.

Winged Gundark:

When attacking at Range 1, you may change 1 of your (hit) results to a (crit) result.

So when you're tossing those 3 red dice, they hit harder. Not as good as Darth Vader + ATC, but Winged Gundark iis 15 points- literally half of Darth.

And that's not even mentioning Howlrunner, a pilot who gives a free Predator to every friendly ship at range 1.

These are all Wave 1 ships, doing Wave 1 things. I think getting that extra die has been around for a long, long time.

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Getting that 3rd attack die has always been a core part of the game. Consider:

Mauler Mithel:

When attacking at Range 1, roll 1 additional attack die.

Ok. I lied. That's 4 dice. From a TIE Fighter. At 17 points. Compare that to a release version of 17 points of A-Wing.

Backstabber:

When attacking from outside the defender's firing arc, roll 1 additional attack die.

That's a 3rd red die

If you can't get outside a Y-Wing's 80 degree firing arc, you need more practice. 16 points.

Honorable Mention:

Dark Curse

When defending, ships attacking you cannot spend focus tokens or reroll attack dice.

What's that? You took either of the 2 actions available to a Wave 1 Rebel ship? Nope. Dark Curse knows that the best offense is living forever and rolling red dice because no one wants to deal with the frustration of trying to kill you. 16 points. That's less than Green Squadron Pilot _with_ Chardaan Refit.

Winged Gundark:

When attacking at Range 1, you may change 1 of your (hit) results to a (crit) result.

So when you're tossing those 3 red dice, they hit harder. Not as good as Darth Vader + ATC, but Winged Gundark iis 15 points- literally half of Darth.

And that's not even mentioning Howlrunner, a pilot who gives a free Predator to every friendly ship at range 1.

These are all Wave 1 ships, doing Wave 1 things. I think getting that extra die has been around for a long, long time.

 

 

Nice.  

 

And with the new Gozanti TIE pilots, I think both Scourge and Chaser deserve some attention, as they work much like Backstabber/Mithel or Night Beast respectively.  Scourge, like his earlier counterparts, has a condition that can lead to him getting an extra die (one that's arguably easier to achieve than the other two), while Chaser (like Night Beast) can essentially have a poor man's PTL.  Could even throw the rarely seen Targeting Computer on either of them, negating the need to have Howlrunner along.

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One problem with two attack dice is that actions tend to be less beneficial. A target lock and (offensive) focus are both more useful on ships with three attack dice. Compare that to evade and defensive focus: an evade matters more to a ship with a low agility. Generally, there is no evade equivalent for red dice.

Now, I think that the game has generally gone towards better action economy. Push the Limit and Advanced Sensors have been around since wave 2, but the possibilities for shedding stress or even using stress have increased, and still do. Exp. Interface made more possible, as well as Wingman, Officer, and the many possibilities for free actions, many of which can trigger PtL etc. Ships can perform more actions, and as I have argued above, it is often a good idea to use a ship with three attack dice if you can perform a lot of actions. The actions just 'do' more that way. I think this nudges players towards more firepower.

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