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Mynock Delta

Mynock Squadron Podcast: Episode VII

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We're back!  Ryan and I were exhausted, but we couldn't keep messing with our esteemed guest's schedule: Kári Kristinsson (Worlds Top 16, #4 after Swiss)

 

http://mynockpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-7-a-tale-of-two-corrans-with-guest-kri-kristinsson

 

MynockPodcast@gmail.com

Edited by Mynock Delta

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Ok.   On top of Kari firing his stress bot and not declaring.      But then asking you to take a stress.

 

The fact that you didn't let him was a real Dk move.     I mean he didn't move on to his next ship, he said it right after shooting, so are you telling me that.   If whisper has acd and fires and forgets to cloak and then 5 seconds later before moving onto the next ship you remember, she cannot cloak.     

 

That is not Fly casual at all IMO.

 

Like I said once he moves onto a different ship and starts it's action, then I could see you saying sorry you forgot.      

 

That move to stop him from putting stress on you because he didn't state it before he fired was really in poor taste.

 

eagletsi111

Edited by eagletsi111

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If I miss a call on R3-A2 I call myself out but I don't usually take it. There are lots of times where my dice would inform my decision and I feel like deciding on the stress after 1 roll and especially 3 rolls is like deciding to boost my IG after Fel has moved. The dice give you more information than you should have when making that decision.

That being said... I don't recall ever denying a missed opportunity to an opponent at a tournament. If you consistently hold yourself to a high standard of rule-following others are more likely to do the same. But that way there are never hard hard feelings about it.

I would never begrudge someone who denied my missed opportunity.

On the other hand I do lie through my teeth during my games. I tell them I'm doing it though. I tell them what moves I'm thinking about to make them worry about stuff. I tell them what I think they're going to do just to make them second-guess it. I feel like that's just part of the fun. If they aren't talkative obviously I shut up, but it's weird that the podcast found this behavior a sort of low way to play. I think it just accelerated what happens behind the scenes once players get to know each other.

I have flown Corran in almost every list for about 18 months now. I have to echo Kari's comments. I don't understand VI/Fcs but the ptl/fcs and ptl/sensors are both top tier. I have gone through phases of both repeatedly.

Edited by TasteTheRainbow

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That move to stop him from putting stress on you because he didn't state it before he fired was really in poor taste.

 

I was totally shocked and depressed listening to this. I have never experienced X-wing players with this kind of attitude or appraoch to "winning". The host said everyone in SoCal plays like that. Is this true? A lot of fun that must be. Luckily we don't have any MtG players crossing over in our area.

Edited by cyclopeatron

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That move to stop him from putting stress on you because he didn't state it before he fired was really in poor taste.

 

I was totally shocked and depressed listening to this. I have never experienced X-wing players with this kind of attitude or appraoch to "winning". The host said everyone in SoCal plays like that. Is this true? A lot of fun that must be. Luckily we don't have any MtG players crossing over in our area.

There are lots of local metas that play this way. As long as everyone knows it ahead of time it doesn't necessarily make for an unfriendly environment. It's when local metas start mixing and real prizes are around that those players come off a bit rude.

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Note: I have not yet listened to the podcast.

 

R3-A2 is a bit of a tough space, because it clearly states you declare when targeting, meaning it is meant to occur before the attack, and one can argue that, based on the attack result, it can be more beneficial to determine if you want the stress after the shot. This makes it a reaaaaallllly tight space between flying casual and flying too casual. Lets say, for example, there is an IG at 1 hull. I fire at it with my stressbot, give it no stress, and then move on to TLT, and again give it no stress. After I see the shots all miss though, I instantly realize the benefit of stressing him, so I say, "Oh, shoot. I'm sorry. I meant to trigger R3-A2."

 

Now, I'm guessing this was not the case in the game (again, I have not yet listened), but the fact that this situation can occur, means that, in a competitive setting, the player who is being attacked has the right to say "Sorry man, but we passed that phase, and it is very beneficial to me to keep the game state as is since that opportunity has passed."

 

Of course, it is in good taste to make sure the player knows you are extremely sorry, but you would expect him to hold you to the same standard as well.

Edited by Kdubb

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Note: I have not yet listened to the podcast.

 

R3-A2 is a bit of a tough space, because it clearly states you declare when targeting, meaning it is meant to occur before the attack, and one can argue that, based on the attack result, it can be more beneficial to determine if you want the stress after the shot. This makes it a reaaaaallllly tight space between flying casual and flying too casual. Lets say, for example, there is an IG at 1 hull. I fire at it with my stressbot, give it no stress, and then move on to TLT, and again give it no stress. After I see the shots all miss though, I instantly realize the benefit of stressing him, so I say, "Oh, shoot. I'm sorry. I meant to trigger R3-A2."

 

Now, I'm guessing this was not the case in the game (again, I have not yet listened), but the fact that this situation can occur, means that, in a competitive setting, the player who is being attacked has the right to say "Sorry man, but we passed that phase, and it is very beneficial to me tp keep the game state as is since that opportunity has passed."

 

Of course, it is in good taste to make sure the player knows you are extremely sorry, but you would expect him to hold you to the same standard as well.

 

This is a really good point. I was too harsh earlier...

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Note: I have not yet listened to the podcast.

 

R3-A2 is a bit of a tough space, because it clearly states you declare when targeting, meaning it is meant to occur before the attack, and one can argue that, based on the attack result, it can be more beneficial to determine if you want the stress after the shot. This makes it a reaaaaallllly tight space between flying casual and flying too casual. Lets say, for example, there is an IG at 1 hull. I fire at it with my stressbot, give it no stress, and then move on to TLT, and again give it no stress. After I see the shots all miss though, I instantly realize the benefit of stressing him, so I say, "Oh, shoot. I'm sorry. I meant to trigger R3-A2."

 

Now, I'm guessing this was not the case in the game (again, I have not yet listened), but the fact that this situation can occur, means that, in a competitive setting, the player who is being attacked has the right to say "Sorry man, but we passed that phase, and it is very beneficial to me tp keep the game state as is since that opportunity has passed."

 

Of course, it is in good taste to make sure the player knows you are extremely sorry, but you would expect him to hold you to the same standard as well.

 

Excellent post.

 

I think that a lot of people tend to confuse "fly casual" with "let people do whatever they want". A lot of times it can be clear that something was a mistake, and you can use your judgement to allow something if you want, but fly casual is more about the attitude of the game and the understanding that we're all there to have fun.

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Great discussions guys, and Kari was a fantastic guest!

I wanted to give an example of a great use of the Lone Wolf with Rec Spec combo which was discussed.

Echo with LW, rec spec, ACD, SJ

I've been finding that VI has been useless on Echo, so I'm starting to branch out a bit with her EPT. This loadout works great with a Palpatine shuttle as support to make Echo extremely difficult to hit.

I speed ahead with Echo while cloaked and double focused until I get behind the enemy. Think about all the damage mitigation here: SJ eliminates a hit about half the time (forces opponent to spend focus the other half of the time). Then I roll 4 dice, with a reroll for a blank, 2 focus for defense, and I have Palpatine as insurance.

Once she's in a safer spot, then decloak and do damage.

Keep up the great work!

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To answer Ryan's question, Han Solo crew does add something to Deadeye.  Let's look at Proton Torpedoes.  You have a Target Lock on some ship from a previous turn, but also have a Focus.  You use the Focus to fire off the torpedo, and you can spend the Target Lock to either modify eyeballs or to re-roll.  If you went the normal way, using TL to fire and Focus to modify, you could only use the Focus conventionally on eyeballs.  Homing Missiles, by contrast, get nothing out of Han Solo.

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The fact that you didn't let him was a real Dk move.     I mean he didn't move on to his next ship, he said it right after shooting, so are you telling me that.   If whisper has acd and fires and forgets to cloak and then 5 seconds later before moving onto the next ship you remember, she cannot cloak.    

 

Yes, but frankly I know I can be a Dk, and I'm communicating my ongoing efforts not to be.  We both thought it would be an excellent example of one of our main topics: etiquette.  From my perspective, I simply called out a missed opportunity, then offered to ignore that and add the stress anyway.  That Whisper example isn't the same at all.  If the Whisper player neglects to cloak, and proceeds to fire with his/her next ship, that's when the window to ACD would close.  I forgot to decloak in a play-in game at Mesa Regionals and it ended my day.  I hold zero rancor toward that opponent for holding me to it; it was my responsibility.  (And he's a terrific fellow with no Dk-ness at all.)

 

If you consistently hold yourself to a high standard of rule-following others are more likely to do the same. But that way there are never hard hard feelings about it.

I would never begrudge someone who denied my missed opportunity.

 

This is my current outlook.  Yesterday, more or less with a store champ plaque/Regionals bye on the line, I held my opponent to a missed FCS opportunity.  We had moved several ships along before he remembered.  If I had been the first one to miss an opportunity, not only do I not begrudge my opponent for pointing it out, I hold myself to those errors regardless.

 

He was playing Lockdown (Omega Leader) and had target locked one of my ships.  I evaded all damage using a focus, then we moved on.  However, when it occurred to me, I pointed it out and removed the appropriate number of shields.  I'm confident most of you would also have done the same.  I'm not saying that this is to my credit, just that this is NOT to my discredit as we all know players that wouldn't correct the game state.  I do have an exacting personality, integrity is important to me, and I know it can come off as "rules lawyering" but my mindset entering X-Wing was to be precise about procedure.  That's why I see value in these discussions, because what I see is varying standards from environment to environment, and person to person, and they very often conflict.  My application of "Fly Casual" is to make every effort to meet on common ground.

 

I was totally shocked and depressed listening to this. I have never experienced X-wing players with this kind of attitude or appraoch to "winning". The host said everyone in SoCal plays like that. Is this true? A lot of fun that must be. Luckily we don't have any MtG players crossing over in our area.

 

No, not everyone in SoCal plays this way.  But enough do, so that eventually you'll end up giving away matches if don't practice being meticulous with procedure.  People chuckle at me because I write down things like DECLOAK FCS FOCUS CLOAK on my hand.  But I need to, because if you forget...well, your opponent is perfectly reasonable to move on without.

 

In casual play, I'm good with allowing my opponent to do whatever they want.  When nothing is on the line, why not let your opponent break the rules?  It provides an opportunity to experiment with tactics and a more challenging setting for practice.

 

In regular store tournaments, I generally let most things slide for much the same reason.  I figure I'll get the promos I need eventually over the season.  However, when I'm up against somebody who is a terrific rival, somebody who possesses my skill or better...well, that's typically someone I know fairly well within our SoCal community.  Those matches are FUN because of your shared history and the quality of play.  At that point, several of us tend to adhere to the highest standards of competitive play, and it's always thrilling.  They kind of simulate high stakes pairings akin to a Regionals match up.  Unfortunately, I didn't have that history with Kari, which took him aback.  I had mentally lumped him in with the elite San Diego players, with whom L.A. has a terrific frenemy relationship with.

 

In store champs and up?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to hold opponents to missed opportunities as long as you maintain the integrity of those standards to apply universally to yourself as well.  What do you all think?  Should I alter that outlook, and why?

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Great discussions guys, and Kari was a fantastic guest!

I wanted to give an example of a great use of the Lone Wolf with Rec Spec combo which was discussed.

Echo with LW, rec spec, ACD, SJ

I've been finding that VI has been useless on Echo, so I'm starting to branch out a bit with her EPT. This loadout works great with a Palpatine shuttle as support to make Echo extremely difficult to hit.

I speed ahead with Echo while cloaked and double focused until I get behind the enemy. Think about all the damage mitigation here: SJ eliminates a hit about half the time (forces opponent to spend focus the other half of the time). Then I roll 4 dice, with a reroll for a blank, 2 focus for defense, and I have Palpatine as insurance.

Once she's in a safer spot, then decloak and do damage.

Keep up the great work!

 

I love running Palp Alt-Aces.  I'll give this a whirl and see how it feels, thanks :)

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On the other hand I do lie through my teeth during my games. I tell them I'm doing it though. I tell them what moves I'm thinking about to make them worry about stuff. I tell them what I think they're going to do just to make them second-guess it. I feel like that's just part of the fun. If they aren't talkative obviously I shut up, but it's weird that the podcast found this behavior a sort of low way to play. I think it just accelerated what happens behind the scenes once players get to know each other.

I have flown Corran in almost every list for about 18 months now. I have to echo Kari's comments. I don't understand VI/Fcs but the ptl/fcs and ptl/sensors are both top tier. I have gone through phases of both repeatedly.

 

Right, people have conflicting views on what constitutes acceptable gamesmanship.  I'm fine with mind games, and Kari spoke openly about his (successful) attempt to bait me (funny though, I made that 2 bank because I was worried he'd extreme block the bailout 2 turnout LOL).  I didn't mean to refer to that as a "sort of low way to play".  If that's how it was received, I offer a full retraction.  I was referring to the confrontational style of trash talking that attempts to rattle your opponent into mistakes.  But see, even as I typed that, I could see a gradient where one intensifies into the other.  Many players lock down "Fly Casual" at some particular point in that spectrum, and then get judgmental at any behavior that is on the "wrong" end of that demarcation point.

 

Yeah, Corran is obviously amazing.  The takeaway is that however you load him out, your play needs to match the advantages you built into him.

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He was playing Lockdown (Omega Leader) and had target locked one of my ships. I evaded all damage using a focus, then we moved on. However, when it occurred to me, I pointed it out and removed the appropriate number of shields. I'm confident most of you would also have done the same

 

Now this is an example of when (in my opinion) you have to go back and fix the mistake. In this case, Omega Leader is an absolute. It reads, "you cannot modify any dice." Since it's not a "may" ability, it's not a missed opportunity. Where R3-A2 is says you may activate it, which qualifies as a missed opportunity. I think that's the main difference for me. If someone forgets something and the card says that it must happen, I go back and enforce it (assuming it's possible, depending on how far we've gotten).

 

That makes perfect sense in my head but now that I typed it out it sounds kinda confusing haha

Edited by CruzinToVictory

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He was playing Lockdown (Omega Leader) and had target locked one of my ships. I evaded all damage using a focus, then we moved on. However, when it occurred to me, I pointed it out and removed the appropriate number of shields. I'm confident most of you would also have done the same

 

Now this is an example of when (in my opinion) you have to go back and fix the mistake. In this case, Omega Leader is an absolute. It reads, "you cannot modify any dice." Since it's not a "may" ability, it's not a missed opportunity. Where R3-A2 is says you may activate it, which qualifies as a missed opportunity. I think that's the main difference for me. If someone forgets something and the card says that it must happen, I go back and enforce it (assuming it's possible, depending on how far we've gotten).

 

That makes perfect sense in my head but now that I typed it out it sounds kinda confusing haha

 

 

I fully agree.  In fact, I used its mandatory nature as an assumption in that example.  I just wanted to illustrate something that I would find to be unacceptable (I have come across players that I am confident would have kept silent and maintained the advantageous game state).

 

It's also why Rebel Captive is such a pain sometimes.  Once you move onto a single revealed dial, there's no way to satisfactorily correct that missed effect, mandatory though it might be.

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He was playing Lockdown (Omega Leader) and had target locked one of my ships. I evaded all damage using a focus, then we moved on. However, when it occurred to me, I pointed it out and removed the appropriate number of shields. I'm confident most of you would also have done the same

 

Now this is an example of when (in my opinion) you have to go back and fix the mistake. In this case, Omega Leader is an absolute. It reads, "you cannot modify any dice." Since it's not a "may" ability, it's not a missed opportunity. Where R3-A2 is says you may activate it, which qualifies as a missed opportunity. I think that's the main difference for me. If someone forgets something and the card says that it must happen, I go back and enforce it (assuming it's possible, depending on how far we've gotten).

 

That makes perfect sense in my head but now that I typed it out it sounds kinda confusing haha

 

 

I fully agree.  In fact, I used its mandatory nature as an assumption in that example.  I just wanted to illustrate something that I would find to be unacceptable (I have come across players that I am confident would have kept silent and maintained the advantageous game state).

 

It's also why Rebel Captive is such a pain sometimes.  Once you move onto a single revealed dial, there's no way to satisfactorily correct that missed effect, mandatory though it might be.

 

 

Really depends on what maneuver was assigned for the ship that should have taken the stress.  If they picked a red maneuver, things get really messy (becasue they presumably wouldn't have picked a red if they'd gotten the stress when tey were supposed to, but just changing their maneuver may or may not be feasible depending on whose dial has been revealed).  If they didn't pick a red maneuver, you may be able to just give them a stress and move on.  It might change WHAT maneuver they would have picked if they'd gotten the stress at the right time, but at least they're still doing a legal maneuver.

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As for you discussion on Pts per ship.   This was discussed on Episode 20 of Nova Squadron   Thread #33.

 

I suggested something like it.    It's how we play with multiple players.

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/138033-nova-squadron-radio-%E2%80%93-episode-20-%E2%80%9Cwave-4-rebels%E2%80%9D/page-2?hl=+nova%20+squadron%20+radio

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The most painful part of that episode was listening to your Australian accents. :P

FYI, when you see the word "Aussie" it's actually pronounced "Ozzy".

 

That was Ryan; I'll punch him for you.  I owe him anyway.  He smacked me during the recording.

 

As for you discussion on Pts per ship.   This was discussed on Episode 20 of Nova Squadron   Thread #33.

 

I suggested something like it.    It's how we play with multiple players.

 

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/138033-nova-squadron-radio-%E2%80%93-episode-20-%E2%80%9Cwave-4-rebels%E2%80%9D/page-2?hl=+nova%20+squadron%20+radio

 

Righto.  It was my response to the fallout of Major Juggler attempting to explain its merits.

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Great show fellas. I just wanted to comment on one of the cards you reviewed; predator. I was surprised about your reactions to this card being slightly unfavorable. I think Predator is great and always worth it's points...on certain ships. For example I like putting it on Captain Oicunn. He is then a great 45 points and leaves tons of room for other ships. I have never taken predator and had it not pay for itself.  

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The most painful part of that episode was listening to your Australian accents. :P

FYI, when you see the word "Aussie" it's actually pronounced "Ozzy".

I'm just glad you didn't try the British one. We all know how that turned out for the BTD boys :D

 

Any press is good press, eh wot bruv?

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