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ThenDoctor

Wanting for Deadlier Combat

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Difference between wounds suffered (5) and the toughness bonus (3) = 2 critical.

 

So lasgun (1D10+3) roll 5 +3 (8 damage); hits the poor citizen in da face. Said citizen has 3TB (because normal cititzen), 8-3 = 5 wounds.

 

From his starting 10 wounds, the guys drop to 5. But since he lost more wounds than his TB, the difference is also critical damage (so 2).

 

 

Problem of my way: there are rarely very high critical damage that blows up legs and such without being an insta-gib also, unless there is a righteous fury (+1D5 critical) involved. 

 

 

So for another example, Rick the guardsman has a light carapace armour (5 all), 5 toughness bonus and 17 wounds (what a tank)

 

He gets it by a bolter and suffers max damage (15 pen 4). He loses 9 wounds, which is 4 higher than his TB, making him suffer 4 critical damage (+1 because bolter is damage type X). With this, it is also a righteous fury, adding +1D5 to an already dangerous 5 critical to the head...there are a lot of chances that RIck dies even if he still have 8 wounds left.

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Ok, I get it! You realize that this is actually more deadly than simply removing TB? It makes sense and is a little bit complicated but it does work! You might want to consider adding your "Righteous fury" critical damage to your wound critical threshhold. This would make righteous fury criticals truly scary AND use the rest of the chart.

 

Using the example above, Said tank disguised as an Acolyte takes 9 wounds from a bolter. this nets him a 4 critical to the 'ead!

Since this is a "Righteous fury" hit you add 1d5 to 4 giving a total number between 5-9 (Critical). You can almost smell the fate points burning... :P  :o 

 

Finally: About zero wounds; For NPC's 0 wounds = dead is fine but for PC's (And possibly master lvl NPC's) I would suggest consider making 0 wounds equal to "Disabled/unconscious" + suffering blood loss. This puts the PC's in real jeopardy but will reduce the number of "Instagibs." It also allows you to laugh maniacally while your Acolytes scramble to drag their wounded comrade to cover and try to save them! (And you thought playing the Chiurgeon would be boring!)

 

What do you think Alexel?  

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Ok, I get it! You realize that this is actually more deadly than simply removing TB? It makes sense and is a little bit complicated but it does work! You might want to consider adding your "Righteous fury" critical damage to your wound critical threshhold. This would make righteous fury criticals truly scary AND use the rest of the chart.

 

I thought about it, but in my head, it made too many magical damage, when the critical bonus is still just a greater effect.

 

Also, my critical doesn't stack (so two hits on the left arm with critical will be two different results).

 

 

 

 

Finally: About zero wounds; For NPC's 0 wounds = dead is fine but for PC's (And possibly master lvl NPC's) I would suggest consider making 0 wounds equal to "Disabled/unconscious" + suffering blood loss. This puts the PC's in real jeopardy but will reduce the number of "Instagibs." It also allows you to laugh maniacally while your Acolytes scramble to drag their wounded comrade to cover and try to save them! (And you thought playing the Chiurgeon would be boring!)

 

 

Actually, it already happens, since for me, burning a fate point means survival, not safety. Last game, one of the guy (said psyker erecting the said wall) was blown up by a grenade. Players worked hard to drag him to safety in cold water in the sewers going through the city's wall. On the other side, the team's assassin was working with a bolter sniper and killed the pursuers at long range while they were dragging the wounded.

 

It was awesome. 

 

Otherwise, people will rarely die (because not enough high critical with my way), I prefer it at 0 at this level, but your way makes sense also; it depends what your objective is at this level.

 

 

Finally, yeah, it is pretty deadly, but I think it's mainly different from getting out TB soak, because a carapace armoured dude with TB4 still soaks 9 damage, while without TB, he would soak only 5 and would get to zero and even -10 faster, being sure to lose wounds and such. Being used to it, my system work very fast and without too much fuss and it accelerates combat, since mook dies the moment they suffer critical, which is often for simple grunts.

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Please don't misunderstand! I like your method and may try it! I would add Righteous fury to critical threshold as described above rather than two distinct crits from one shot.  I understand that crits won't stack since they are not applied at 0 wounds. (I always found that to be a little strange anyway!)

 

Note that TB4 dude in carapace is essentially immune to non Righteous fury crits from said autogun (Barring special ammo). Also note that Accurate weapons become true game changers using your system! Same dude gets hit by Sniper rifle: (1d10+4 pen 3 Accurate). Avg damage should be between 23-25 pts. Dude soaks six which leaves 14-16 pts actual damage. Assuming that doesn't put him down outright, dude is looking at critical hit 10-13. Dude is in deep Kimshi (dead!). And thats without RF!

 

Please keep in mind that as a GM I'm not above doing this to my acolytes either! 

Edited by Radwraith

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Haha, no problem Radwraith, I didn't read anything that suggested that you didn't like my method!
 

Feel free to use it, if other people have fun with it, the better!

 

And yeah, sniper rifle does the job, and having carapace armour protect you mainly from big hits, etc.

 

 

But in the end, characters die, and I like this!

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I don't think this house rule makes session any funnier for players. It really randomizes the game and might make any PC dead or unconscious in one turn. For a standard guardsman who has TB3 and AR4 that's only 3+4+3= 10dmg soak before taking critical wound. As most weapons deal 1d10 + sth damage in OW there will always be huge chance for critical damage. For a lasgun dealing 1d10+3 - 30% chance. That's huge.

 

By the way, the point of the game is not always to kill PC's.

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Make it brutal, but not mean. Let the players fall because of their bad decision making. Not because dice want it.

 

This means nothing.

 

Whatever way or rule you'll take, in the end, it will be as much as a question of dice rolls or player's decisions.

 

 

 

 

I don't think this house rule makes session any funnier for players

 

Well, my players like it much and are very happy to use since the change many years ago. 

 

I doesn't make it funnier. It makes it different.

 

 

 

 As most weapons deal 1d10 + sth damage in OW there will always be huge chance for critical damage. For a lasgun dealing 1d10+3 - 30% chance. That's huge.

 

 

Well...which is the case when you get hit by a weapon.

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"Whatever way or rule you'll take, in the end, it will be as much as a question of dice rolls or player's decisions."

 

Nope. There are numerous ways to make dice count more or less in any game. In DH2 TB, AR, wounds before cricical wounds, are there to flatten damage results for characters.

 

"Well, my players like it much and are very happy to use since the change many years ago. "

 

Whatever works for you, man.

 

"Well...which is the case when you get hit by a weapon."

 

Thank Emperor! So the only thing PC's have to do is to avoid enemies.

Edited by Commediante

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Wounds are Crit Points aren't absorbing Melta fire - again - when you take damage in the game system - it is more symbolitic and not actually a simulation - if it was a simulation - first melta blast you're character is dead - make a new character - rinse & repeat (I am GM win muhahahahah = joking btw)

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Nope. There are numerous ways to make dice count more or less in any game. In DH2 TB, AR, wounds before cricical wounds, are there to flatten damage results for characters.

 

 

 

But when you get in critical, you can lose your head in an explosion of grenades, ammos, skull parts, because you received a punch. Which is way more random than what happens in my system (I.E. this won't happen in my system). 

 

And all those buffers are still there, critical damages are even weaker than they where, since there are very rarely hight value. Stack up true grit with that, and you won't see much things.

 

 

Thank Emperor! So the only thing PC's have to do is to avoid enemies.

 
Or play intelligently...like using cover, smoking theire ennemies, using suppressing fire and not being total idiots, which make may players not die often. You know, like you should play any other game with weapons.

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"But when you get in critical, you can lose your head in an explosion of grenades, ammos, skull parts, because you received a punch. "

 

No. If you get a critical, which in RAW is called "Righteous Fury", you receive Critical Effect from range 1-5. Worst case here is loss of limb or some kind of permanent damage after series of very unfortunate rolls that always can be re-rolled with FP. To trigger it, you have to roll natural ten and pierce through TB and/or AR and roll natural 9 or 10 on type of Effect. And it doesn't add up. Critical Effect from Righteous Fury is not Critical Damage.

 

"Which is way more random than what happens in my system (I.E. this won't happen in my system)."

It's not. In your system all that character has to do to inflict critical damage is a lucky roll. Id doesn't even have to be natural 10. And it not only applies Critical Effect, it applies Critical Damage as well, according to what you've written. This means that it adds up, which is not the case in Righteous Fury.

 

In RAW characters need to dig through normal wounds first. This means that they usually need several attacks to do it, which makes them more average. Which makes it less random.

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No. If you get a critical, which in RAW is called "Righteous Fury", you receive Critical Effect from range 1-5. Worst case here is loss of limb or some kind of permanent damage after series of very unfortunate rolls that always can be re-rolled with FP. To trigger it, you have to roll natural ten and pierce through TB and/or AR and roll natural 9 or 10 on type of Effect. And it doesn't add up. Critical Effect from Righteous Fury is not Critical Damage.

 

 

That, or you get below zero, and repeated punches of 1 damage gets to your head exploding with all your ammos going off.

 

 

 

 

It's not. In your system all that character has to do to inflict critical damage is a lucky roll. Id doesn't even have to be natural 10. And it not only applies Critical Effect, it applies Critical Damage as well, according to what you've written. This means that it adds up, which is not the case in Righteous Fury.

 

Thanks. I didn't know my own system.

 

 

 

 

In RAW characters need to dig through normal wounds first. This means that they usually need several attacks to do it, which makes them more average. Which makes it less random.

 

You clearly didn't read the original system or mine, nor compared both, to say that one is less random than the other, since the basic mechanics are the same, the randomness is the same. The critical effect of my systems aren't random, since they are based on static numbers.

 

The criticals adding up are not more random; they are more violent, but the randomness is the same: 1D5. 

 

The other number is static, so not random.

 

 

You can declare it's more violent, it's more gritty, that players have less "soak" before beginning to suffer critical, I agree with tyou. That's what was intended (hence the name of the topic, also), but declaring it's more random is not knowing at all the definition of random.

 

 

End of story.

Edited by InquisitorAlexel

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"Story" is a perfect choice of word, because none of the above could be described as fact.

 

"That, or you get below zero, and repeated punches of 1 damage gets to your head exploding with all your ammos going off."

 

I've never heard nor seen any complains about too little ammo in Only War. Usually it's the opposite - clips are so large, that a need to reload is very rare.

 

"Thanks. I didn't know my own system."

 

You clearly didn't because you write that:

 

"You clearly didn't read the original system or mine, nor compared both, to say that one is less random than the other, since the basic mechanics are the same, the randomness is the same. The critical effect of my systems aren't random, since they are based on static numbers."

 

Basic mechanics aren't the same, because getting Critical Wounds after 2TB + AR soak is nowhere in the basics. And it makes crits much more random, because most lucky damage attempts can Critically Wound characters. That's not the case in original system, normal wounds prevent that.

 

"The criticals adding up are not more random; they are more violent, but the randomness is the same: 1D5."

 

No. In the original there's no 1D5's to determine how many Critical Wounds was inflicted upon character.

 

"The other number is static, so not random."

 

Toughness Bonus and Armor Rating for example are static numbers that can increase or decrease randomness of damage inflicted, so that's not a rule.

 

"You can declare it's more violent, it's more gritty, that players have less "soak" before beginning to suffer critical, I agree with tyou. That's what was intended (hence the name of the topic, also), but declaring it's more random is not knowing at all the definition of random."

 

random - lacking any definite plan or order or purpose; governed by or depending on chance

 

Original goes by the order that chance for a Crit Wound is close to zero in most cases. Your system ignores that rule and makes every hit able to inflict more than 2TB+AR to turn wounds into Crits.

 

There aren't really more ways to describe it to you, so I'm not going to repeat myself any more and end this topic.

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No. In the original there's no 1D5's to determine how many Critical Wounds was inflicted upon character.

 

Righteous Fury does.

 

Like in mine., This happens only with Righteous fury. Basics of the system, as I told you before you decided to not read again.

 

 

 

Basic mechanics aren't the same, because getting Critical Wounds after 2TB + AR soak is nowhere in the basics. And it makes crits much more random, because most lucky damage attempts can Critically Wound characters. That's not the case in original system, normal wounds prevent that.

 

I'll define basic mechanics for you since I was either unclear or you don't know what basics mean.

 

Basic mechanics are said Toughness Bonus, Table of Critical damage, Wounds and such.

 

 

The interaction of those basic mechanics is what I changed.

 

 

So yeah, the basics are still there.

 

 

 

 

Toughness Bonus and Armor Rating for example are static numbers that can increase or decrease randomness of damage inflicted, so that's not a rule.

 

Exactly what I said.

 

 

 

 

Original goes by the order that chance for a Crit Wound is close to zero in most cases. Your system ignores that rule and makes every hit able to inflict more than 2TB+AR to turn wounds into Crits.

 

No sh*t sherlock. That's what I said in the first post. That's still not more random than the chance that you lose more or less wounds.

 

 

The basics are still the same, you still have the same output of damage from a weapon, you still have the same tb soak. You still have the same armor soak system and the pen still works the way it did.

 

The difference is that there is no below 0, as stated. That isn't random. It's static: there isn't below 0. 

 

The other difference is that by going up a predetermined static number, you can suffer critical damage. 

 

The said static number changer from: you must get below zero to you must get more thant X wounds in a shot.

 

These are still static numbers.

 

 

In the end, characters won,t suffer a head exploding for a 1 wound punch to the head because that's what a scale of -1 wound to -10 gives you.

 

 

 

random - lacking any definite plan or order or purpose; governed by or depending on chance

 

 

Don't quote something you can't use. 

 

In the system I created, the point where you get critical damage is clearly defined and is always based on the same statistics and the only random part of it the same random part that there was: the roll on your damage dice.

 

 

 

 

There aren't really more ways to describe it to you, so I'm not going to repeat myself any more and end this topic.

 

Of course there is nothing more you can say to describe it to me. I've created and ran this system for the last 4 years. Everything you said to me is known EXCEPT the fact that you use words like "random" and "facts" clearly without knowing what they mean. 

 

 

The only thing you've done here is stating, in your first post, your disagreement in a childish way and then attacking it with opinions that aren't based on anything else than spite when I tried to explain my position to you. 

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"Righteous Fury does."

 

It doesn't. It inflicts Criticall Effect upon character. Not Critical Wound.

 

"Basic mechanics are said Toughness Bonus, Table of Critical damage, Wounds and such.

The interaction of those basic mechanics is what I changed."

 

If that's what you really meant you've been extremely unclear. For me basic combat mechanics are those described in Core Rulebook and things like TB and Wounds are elements of those basic combat mechanics.

 

"So yeah, the basics are still there."

 

Yeah, you still use Toughness Bonus. So what? It's not what you use but how, that I don't like.

 

"No sh*t sherlock."

 

You were wrong about Righteous Fury and used strange definition of "basic mechanics", so you're probably gonna see more of this sh*t. You weren't very convincing as GM that knows the rulebook, my dear Dr Watson.

 

"The basics are still the same, you still have the same output of damage from a weapon, you still have the same tb soak. You still have the same armor soak system and the pen still works the way it did."

 

You know, math has that curious thing, sometimes all it gets is one number to change the whole equation. 

 

"The said static number changer from: you must get below zero to you must get more thant X wounds in a shot."

 

No sh*t sherlock

 

"In the system I created, the point where you get critical damage is clearly defined and is always based on the same statistics and the only random part of it the same random part that there was: the roll on your damage dice."

 

Random part is that lucky rolls for damage coming from even the crappiest of weapons inflict critical damage upon characters.

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All your posts state this:

 

-1 You disagree with deadlier combat, which is fair and up to you.

 

-2 You particularly disagree with my system, which is your choice.

 

-3 You didn't understand nothing of my explanations (maybe I ain't clear enough, since english is not my first language).

 

Your points are:

-My mechanics add randomness; there can be critical damage before the 0 wound threshold, which is for you an assurance that damage rolls are mitigated.

-You state a difference in my system between critical effects and critical damage, saying that in RAW, you can't get critical damage from a righteous fury.

 

 

I'll try to tell you how it works one last time, since you didn't get it, and maybe it's my fault, because none of your arguments are true, I consider that you must have intellect and I was simply not clear:

 

-Basic game systeme (your definition of basic): You reduce wounds with TB and armour. Once your wounds reach below 0, each number of wounds lost adds up to give you critical damage.

 

You can also suffer a critical effect of 1D5 on a righteous fury (10 on your damage die). I'm pretty sure you agree on this.

 

In my system, I ditched the below 0 wounds. I'm sure you understood that, right?

 

Now, characters don't get critical damages unless they lose more wounds than their TB bonus in one shot. So the number of critical damage taken is not more random than before.

-Where before it was the damage suffered by the character on a damage die when said character was below zero, now it's the number of wounds he lose in excess of the value of his toughness bonus.

 

These have the same randomness: the number of damage. Except that when you reach 0, each wound is a critical. In mine, only those in excess of TB value. 

 

There are even less critical damage than there were. 

 

Death occurs faster indeed, because wounds, reaching 0, causes death. This isn't more random. It's just faster.

 

 

Now, for the rigtheous fury part. In the actual game system, rolling a 10 on damages provokes a righteous fury, which either inflict 1 wounds if the target couldn't suffer any, or a 1D5 critical effect if the character did suffer wounds.

 

This is the same stuff in my game EXCEPT that when you get critical from too great a wound and you suffer a righteous fury, those 2 values add up together.

 

 

BUT I don't keep track of critical damage in game. Once a critical effect of 2 is obtained because of a 8 damage (5 wounds) to the torso of a simple civilian, we give the effects and the next critical effect on the chest won't stack up with this one.

 

 

 

Conclusions:

-Results are different, as you stated in your comment about maths. I know this; this is the prelude of the topic here: how to get deadler combat, which is what i get, which is the objective. 

-Critical damage are no more random than the RAW, they are determined by a very specific condition, that can't be attained unless great damage, contrary to repeated punches of 1 damage.

-Death comes faster, which is the objective. 

 

 

Since I suppose that you wanted to understad and just did not, I hope this is clearer. If you still think the same things that you did, you are either not in the good topic (and that's legit), or not understanding a thing about what I wrote, which I can't change at this point. 

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Let's all take a chill pill before this devolves into outright name calling!

 

Commediante: If you don't want your combat deadlier that is your right but the original topic was for people who did!

 

If it helps: Think of as adjusting the difficulty level like in a video game like Call of duty.So on the 'Normal' setting we have the RAW. On the 'Hard' setting we have my method (Raw minus TB soak), On the 'Very hard' setting we have InquisitorAlexel's method. In that vein I guess you could have an 'Insane' setting where you use both my method AND Inquisitor Alexel's. It wouldn't be too bad with normal weapons like Autoguns but with higher lvl. stuff it would get messy!

 

A quick note: Alexel's method is NOT more random than the base system. It's exactly the Opposite! 

 

I would actually like to point something else out in favor of Alexels system: It's actually closer to how Ballistics vs. armor actually works! When someone in modern body armor takes a hit from a bullet or shrapnel believe me they feel it! (Ask any of the veterans on this site! There are quite a few including myself,) The difference is whether or not that causes any more serious damage. Taking a 9mm round to the Trauma plate of your body armor won't likely penetrate but it will still give you a pretty serious bruise! If the round actually gets through the body armor (As is likely the case with say, a NATO 7.62mm round) than it will probably do more than just bruise you!

 

It is also worth noting that InquisitorAlexel's method is a somewhat better realised version of what FFG was actually TRYING to do with the system in the original DH2 beta! (For those of us that remember that) so don't be too quick to judge!

 

The only thing I Don't like about Alexel's system is that it retains the problem of Space Marines being essentially invulnerable to normal weapons. This is not true in TT nor should it be here! 

Edited by Radwraith

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The only thing I Don't like about Alexel's system is that it retains the problem of Space Marines being essentially invulnerable to normal weapons. This is not true in TT nor should it be here! 

 

That's another point. Personnaly, I like them this way moreso than I give NPC (as stated at the begining) the chance for rigtehous fury, which give them 1 wound on space marines, so many guardsmen will weather them down fast enough, but a well played space marine could indeed be nigh invulnerable.

 

In one of my games, which is 18 000xp, one of my player plays a space wolf (we used the archetypes from BC but gave instead aptitudes with which he buys from DH2 his stats), and he is very strong. But even then, I've got human players that are builded tanks and can still support close to them in damages output. My space marine often suffers from mundane weapon! ;)

 

 

PS: Commendiante, sorry if I've been harsh a few posts before, I indeed lost my cool. I was not sarcastic in my last post before this one.

Edited by InquisitorAlexel

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I also have always given righteous fury to all NPC's. I'm big believer in the "golden bb" theory!

 

I really like the way you handle critical damage but I personally don't like anything being Invulnerable! I did a little math with what would happen combining your system and mine. Here's what I came up with:

 

A Tb 3 target gets hit by a heretic wielding an Autogun. Target is wearing flak armor. (AP 4 all) Average damage for an autogun is 8-9 statistically so we'll use 9 for the sake of argument. 9 damage minus 4 armor =6 remaining so six damage is taken from the character. For a Tb 3 character this is still (barely) lightly damaged. 6-3tb for critical leaves a result of 3 (Impact [i tend to use rending for bullets but that's just me]) The result per the table is: The attack breaks a rib with a resounding crunch. The target is Stunned for 1 round and knocked Prone. Considering this represents a fairly direct hit to the chest (with body armor) from something like a 5.56mm round I'd call that pretty forgiving!

 

Of course using a combined approach like this would require players to use a lot more emphasis on evasion and cover in their battles since standing out in the open is generally suicide!

 

Now bear in mind our Chaos Space marine gets hit with the same autogun. average damage is 9 but CSM has 14 damage soak to body (10 armor + 4 unnat tb) so he is still pretty safe from that. But if he is hit in the head or arm he only has 12 damage soak so he will take a riteous fury crit plus 1 pt damage from a max damage hit. This is a threat to him but not an insurmountable one. If Bob the CSM gets hit with an Astartes Bolter round however, the math is a bit different: Astartes average damage is 15 with pen 5 so Bob only has 9 soak and will on average take 6 points damage with no Crit. (6-8= -2). The Max (non RF) damage to bob is 9 points with a Critical hit value of 1. This will add up quick though so not getting hit by enemy Bolter rounds is probably still the best answer! (Legion/ Astartes Bolters are still ridiculously overpowered though! Should be 1d10 + 6 or 7 but not +9!)

 

What do you think?

Edited by Radwraith

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What do you think?

 

Hum, honestly, I don't think that this is as bad as I thought.

 

But I must admit that I still like the TB soak in the game. It was a mechanic that I always loved, but your example will make his way in my brain for a long time now.

 

And indeed, the space marine still soaks a good lot.

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Do remember that a situation in which wounds are lower, for example, if randomness remains the same, it has an increased impact. Also note that increasing the danger of combat always hurts PCs, as they are in every combat, not just one or two. Generally, NPCs in fights are going to die, or lose, at least. PCs are the ones that are always harmed - even if it benefits them just as much as their enemies. This is because they are in every fight. The chance of severe injury has increased for them, not for the mooks who were going to die anyway.

 

Of course, I like increasing the danger of combat, for exactly that reason. It ends up like Hotline Miami.  :D

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Idea, based on the previous very good ideas:

 

  • Toughness Bonus does not reduce damage.
  • Characters do not have Wounds at all. Wounds are no longer a thing.
  • Damage dealt over one's Toughness bonus causes a Critical Effect equal to the amount it exceeds it by.

I'm not sure about the exact details, but I'm also very tempted to change armour to work the exact same as in the wargame. It gives a percentage chance to negate all damage (perhaps causing Fatigue instead of Critical Effects due to this), but can be completely ignored by high AP. Weapons would need to be restatted. Keeping the way armour works as is would probably require lowering damage for many weapons.

 

I'm also tempted to have existing Wounds penalise Toughness Bonus, or bring bleeding effects in at lower levels.

Edited by bluntpencil2001

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