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Wanting for Deadlier Combat

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Uhm, Where did you guys get the idea that Orcs have only unnatural toughness (1)? I can't find any Stats for Orcs in DH2 but in OW It's Unnat. (2) and goes up as the Orc grows. When they get big enough, Orc Nobs can almost go toe to toe with a Space Marine!

Enemies Without, pp. 86-87. Also p. 95, "Misshapen Ork Boy" (Ork Brute have UT 2).
Edited by Aenno

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Uhm, Where did you guys get the idea that Orcs have only unnatural toughness (1)? I can't find any Stats for Orcs in DH2 but in OW It's Unnat. (2) and goes up as the Orc grows. When they get big enough, Orc Nobs can almost go toe to toe with a Space Marine!

 

And while your looking at that you have to figure in all their talents that reduce or mitigate damage! It's hardly easy to "put down" an Orc even w/o TB skin armor.

 

P.95 of ennemy without, indeed.

 

But otherwise, in 40k, an ork boy is supposed to be as tough as a space marine. I can accept that in the RPG, we have broader stats so T4 is not necessarily all with TB8 in the game. But since, only unnatural toughness 1, compared to unnatural toughness 4 force space marines, in a "no-skin-armour-except-unnatural" makes the ork closer to a man than a marine, while in the universe it is supposed to be the opposite.

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Just some food for thought...

 

TB was derived I feel to compensate for low Wound count in this game system - though they wanted us to be beefy like a higher level character in say D&D with double digit HPs...

 

Say my TB (bonus) was just 2 - then stack on the weakest of armor for an additional 1 - mathematically then; each hit im hit by is counted "like" i got +3 HPs per hit - even though I soaked it all up like a good boy! LOL

 

As we all know when damage goes over total soak values - then Wounds occur - fine - but point for point you have and or enjoy a high HPs count by default of these game's mechanics - though not as obvious as D&D or Palladium systems...

 

That's just some food for thought - not going against what you guys are presenting - just saying in general since no one is making this point about the cumulative soaking mathematics.

 

Next; if not deadly enough consider this

 

Stress Damage = i.e. fractional damage

 

Example

 

Each "point" of damage wholly soaked incurs a .01 Wound by default (thus 10 fully soaked points of damage = 1 Wound)

 

In this way you end up with characters with fractional Wound values like 8.4 or 10.2 or whatever...

 

Each point of Stress Damage is healed at a rate of 1-point per Hour

 

Expanded

 

In addition to combat I used Stress damage for things like;

 

- Failing Physical Rolls (climbing, jumping, etc) - you make the gap or negotiate the obstacle but suffer from momentary loss (albeit pain, mental duress, whatever)

 

- Environmental or Poison or Sickness; usually a static value like .01 per Hour, Minute, whatever; this makes radiation damage very easy to deploy as a GM in game while giving PCs the ability to wade in

 

- Aura / Radiate effects - yes like radiation but more so like the aura effects found in D&D; cold, negative emotions, whatever...

 

That's the gist of it - hope this helps some!

 

Stay GAMING

Morbid

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Uhm, Where did you guys get the idea that Orcs have only unnatural toughness (1)? I can't find any Stats for Orcs in DH2 but in OW It's Unnat. (2) and goes up as the Orc grows. When they get big enough, Orc Nobs can almost go toe to toe with a Space Marine!

Enemies Without, pp. 86-87. Also p. 95, "Misshapen Ork Boy" (Ork Brute have UT 2).

 

You need to look at this more closely. This is a "Lesser" orc found on a specific world. A "Stock" Orc would still be the ones in OW. (Unnat T [2])

 

 

Just some food for thought...

 

TB was derived I feel to compensate for low Wound count in this game system - though they wanted us to be beefy like a higher level character in say D&D with double digit HPs...

 

Say my TB (bonus) was just 2 - then stack on the weakest of armor for an additional 1 - mathematically then; each hit im hit by is counted "like" i got +3 HPs per hit - even though I soaked it all up like a good boy! LOL

 

As we all know when damage goes over total soak values - then Wounds occur - fine - but point for point you have and or enjoy a high HPs count by default of these game's mechanics - though not as obvious as D&D or Palladium systems...

 

That's just some food for thought - not going against what you guys are presenting - just saying in general since no one is making this point about the cumulative soaking mathematics.

 

Next; if not deadly enough consider this

 

Stress Damage = i.e. fractional damage

 

Example

 

Each "point" of damage wholly soaked incurs a .01 Wound by default (thus 10 fully soaked points of damage = 1 Wound)

 

In this way you end up with characters with fractional Wound values like 8.4 or 10.2 or whatever...

 

Each point of Stress Damage is healed at a rate of 1-point per Hour

 

Expanded

 

In addition to combat I used Stress damage for things like;

 

- Failing Physical Rolls (climbing, jumping, etc) - you make the gap or negotiate the obstacle but suffer from momentary loss (albeit pain, mental duress, whatever)

 

- Environmental or Poison or Sickness; usually a static value like .01 per Hour, Minute, whatever; this makes radiation damage very easy to deploy as a GM in game while giving PCs the ability to wade in

 

- Aura / Radiate effects - yes like radiation but more so like the aura effects found in D&D; cold, negative emotions, whatever...

 

That's the gist of it - hope this helps some!

 

Stay GAMING

Morbid

This speaks to the exact reason I do what I do. I want my combat encounters to be more tactical and more lethal. As long as the rules are applied evenly to both players and bad guys I'm good with it!  I don't think I'd apply the fractional modifiers though.

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OK another suggestion - a tried and true classic - vitals & head shots!

 

Firstly - make any hit to Vitals or Head double double damage

Second - make any Called Attacks to such areas now -50%

 

Simple yet effective - have fun

 

Morbid

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Not sure I got your meaning - it was cumulative "fractional damage" not modifiers I was suggesting (no biggie)

I understood it but many players I've met wouldn't.

 

OK another suggestion - a tried and true classic - vitals & head shots!

 

Firstly - make any hit to Vitals or Head double double damage

Second - make any Called Attacks to such areas now -50%

 

Simple yet effective - have fun

 

Morbid

I would do one or the other, not both. For example, I don't mind double damage for headshots but it's largely unnecessary. The weapons most commonly used for this are "Accurate" weapons which already feature a damage bonus. Called shots are already -20 and penalties are completely removed if the Acolyte has the "precision killer" talent. (Which should be fairly common in Assassin types anyway!) I might consider it for melee weapons though. 

Edited by Radwraith

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You need to look at this more closely. This is a "Lesser" orc found on a specific world. A "Stock" Orc would still be the ones in OW. (Unnat T [2])

 

 

 

Nothing proves this until they set stats for orks in DH2. They generally change stats a bit from one version to the other, so actually, an ork is unntural TB1.

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I'd make the Toughness Bonus a decreasing soaking value per encounter.

 

This means for someone with TB 3:

> First hit: Soak 3

> Second Hit: Soak 2

> Third Hit: Soak 1

> Fourth hit +: no soak anymore

 

In this way, TB still helps, but is a little less likely to make invincible.

 

In case of Unnatural Toughness, you could make the Unnatural Soaking points non-decreasing.

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Yeah and now track how many times each character was hit while you have for example 10 characters in an encounter -.-

 

Ultimately all ideas showed here make more harm than good IMO. If you want combat to be deadlier, use deadlier NPC's with deadlier weapons. Why make it so complicated?

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In this way, TB still helps, but is a little less likely to make invincible.

 

In case of Unnatural Toughness, you could make the Unnatural Soaking points non-decreasing.

 

Never saw invincible character, and I had players building TB oriented characters a lot.

 

 

Exactly, unless it's specifically talked about beforehand looting becomes and issue at that point.

 

 

Or you don,t give them time to. Because after the encounter against the elite ennemy troop, the bridge will collapse because of charges they put in as a last ditch effort to kill the acolytes, or the cultists will end their invocation, or the place they fought in is unstable because of all explosives and good guns used and it will crumble to dust, or a next wave of ennemy is coming, etc. etc.

 

You decide, as a GM, the timing of your battle, and you can stop that from happening. Moreso if you happend to speak with your players about the setting at the beginning of the game about "tainted weapons by the filthy hands of heretics"

 

And stronger weaponry can still be man-stopper clips, red-dot laser sight, one-shot use auxiliary grenade launcher, use of said grenades, exterminator pack, a one shot of webber auxiliary launcher, a simple sniper rifle, etc.

 

 

I played my players with DH1 ascension and I killed primaris psykers and vindicare assassin with basic autogun. When I read that combat is not enough deadly, it makes me laugh to be honest. Speak to any of my players, they'll tell you they hug walls and any form of cover they can, or they get the upper hand, because no one wants a straight fight. (unless those moments they fight mooks)

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Just out of curiosity. How did you manage to kill a vindicare assassin (that is not helpless, and aware of you) with an regular autogun ?

 

Or was the autogun the projectile of a much bigger weapon, and not the weapon itself ? ;)

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I still consider the concept of Wounds the most problematic (you got hit, but nothing really happens), playing without them is dangerous and not entirely system-as-intended-balanced, but doable. 

 

Problem with better weapons is, well, superman syndrome. You see, when every mook has a bolter and carapace, there is something wrong with grittiness of the setting

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Wounds are a narrative tool - sure you by the math soaked all the damage - explanation wise - you either got bruised or scrapped or burned - to such an extent it doesn affect your fighting ability - this is known as PULP - what your looking for is something more along the lines of an RPG simulator (which is cool)...

 

I'm just hopefully explaining the concept FFG decided to go for - as the concept is known as Pulp vs Purist play (Gumshoe System)

 

Here's the GIST:

Pulp - heroic, over the top, glosses over fine details in lieu of delivering action

Purist - gritty, taxing, challenging play where the devil is in the details

 

Hope this clear Game Design "style" FFG went for instead of "Hit Points" or other metrics with "higher numbers" for health and the like

 

Stay GAMING

Morbid

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P.S. mechanics wise just reduce Wound value if you want quicker kills - that's the easiest thing you can do without mucking up mechanics that have dependencies on each other (i.e. a relationship - like talents and stuff)...

 

In essence the way the game is built - everyone is "like" a 7th to 10th Level D&D character in terms of raw staying power by Hit Points / Wounds alone!

 

Make a 7th Level D&D character - run it thru some sort of auto dice roller for combat - note how many hits (not hit points) it takes to down said character

Now do the same with a Rank 1 Acolyte - see how many hits it takes to down them...

 

Now compare

 

That's the "play-style" these authors went for!

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One word: Looting ;D

 

I don't understand the problem. You're GM, man, you're the god. Can't you think of any reason to prevent pc's from looting? It's certainly easier than removing TB soak.

 

 

Looting is not the only reason I wanted to remove TB, but it hardly matters now, discussed the idea with the players and got a hearty "no" so I guess I've just got to send greater demons after them until the realize that I'd let up if they'd let me just mess with the toughness of the game.

 

Kidding, but it is annoying.

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Just out of curiosity. How did you manage to kill a vindicare assassin (that is not helpless, and aware of you) with an regular autogun ?

 

Tactics.

The guy was trying to assassinate the leader of a powerful organisation that delved in necromancy. It was on granithor, a cemetery worlds for dead guardsman. So the soliders there where dead guardsmen and they where patrolling the place to protect their masters (a radical inquisitor and other important figures). The player was spotted by the reanimated soliders, and was thrown smoke grenades and was attacked by all sides by fearless dead soldiers.

 

He couldn't see them through the smoke since they didn't have heat signatures, and with the volume of fire they put through the assassin, he was eventually touched. Since I permit righteous fury for my NPC, he was hit multiple times, and once with a terrible righteous fury. The guy dropped. 

 

He decided to burn and get up immedietaly to end his mission. He got killed again.

 

 

If you permit rigtehous fury to your npc, numbers will do the job.

 

In DH2, I had a telekinetic psyker that erected a wall of defence (with cognizar homebrew rules) and with his armour and 60 toughness, was able to soak a lot of damage. He had a complete squad of PD and two armoured car with heavy stubber advancing on him in full autot to drop him and get access to the tunnel the psyker was blocking.

 

The psyker was shot so many times (and with a big badluck with my own dices rolling lots of 10s) that he crumbled and lost a leg in the end when grenades when through the barrier. 

 

And this was with a tanky player with mesh armour, 60 toughness, bionic heart, subskin armour and a 6ap field erected in front of him. 

 

 

TB is still a thing in my games, but my changes make it that a character that falls at 0 wound is dead.

 

ritghteous fury can be done by anyone.

 

And each wounds you lose in excess of your TB is also critical damage (so a 8 damage to an unportected TB3 guy make him lose 5 wounds and suffer 2 critical) that are added to righteous fury criticals.

 

 

Characters can die very quickly without dropping TB soak.

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TB is still a thing in my games, but my changes make it that a character that falls at 0 wound is dead.

 

ritghteous fury can be done by anyone.

 

And each wounds you lose in excess of your TB is also critical damage (so a 8 damage to an unportected TB3 guy make him lose 5 wounds and suffer 2 critical) that are added to righteous fury criticals.

 

 

Characters can die very quickly without dropping TB soak.

 

This is interesting! But how did you arrive at 2 critical?

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