Tractor Beam and Obstacles and Punch and Pie

[Vulf 911]

I was hoping people would show up for punch and pie, but anyway, has this been resolved?

 

 

The effect of Asteroid Token, that is only when you execute a maneuver and overlap it, not an effect of simply overlapping. So Tractor Beam would not cause the damage effect of the Asteroid. At least that is what I think I'm reading.

 

There is a portion: "While a ship is overlapping an Asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks."

Is that an effect of having executed a maneuver that suffers the effect of an Asteroid Token, or is it the static effect of just being on the asteroid?

 

 

Even if the ship doesn't suffer a damage roll and action skip from being Tractored onto an Asteroid, it may end up overlapping it with its maneuver template as it attempts to leave it later.

 

I don't think you can use Tractor Beam on a ship to make it take 2 damage rolls from the same Asteroid. The article implied that it may take up to 2 points of damage from 2 different collision rolls, and I think the article is wrong again.

 

Bombs are different in that they only require the template and don't care if it was actually a performed maneuver that caused the overlap.

Also Tractor Beam isn't released yet so I'm jumping the gun.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Vulf

[treybert 893]

I don't think there is an official answer yet. While the article does imply they would roll on the tractor beam portion, it wouldn't be the first time the preview was wrong. I'm still bitter about bombs and SLAM.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

I don't think you can use Tractor Beam on a ship to make it take 2 damage rolls from the same Asteroid. The article implied that it may take up to 2 points of damage from 2 different collision rolls, and I think the article is wrong again.

I think this is where it's probably going to land, but we won't know for sure until some time after release.

[Slugrage 5,011]

Rules questions about un-released product FTW!

 

Srsly, we don't know what's in the box, what's included in the rules book, and/or what the next FAQ or rules book change will bring.

 

So in the mystery of the magic 8-Ball... Answer Unclear. Ask again later.

[Slugrage 5,011]

And I believe there is supposed to be punch and pie.

[nigeltastic 3,808]

My guess is wave 8 is going to bring a large faq update with it covering many current questions especially about tractor beam.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

To the OP

That is a fairly accurate summary of the question we have been talking about since the T Beam rules were fully spoiled.

[Sephlar 260]

Regarding WHEN the dice roll for damage when a ship is on an asteroid, the rules are ver specific. It happens "after skipping the perform action step."

If an article, even an FFG article, says otherwise, that does not trump the rules.

To your second point, it does not matter how a ship got on a rock, if it's on the rock when it is that ships turn to attack, it can not attack. Again the rules are clear: "While a ship is overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks."

To me this like so many other things regarding tractor beam, do not need an FAQ ruling. That is not to say that there won't be an FAQ entry for tractor beam in the next 2-6 weeks, there probably will.

That's how I read it.

[Kharnvor 432]

Had an Epic game last night where a HWK landed on an asteroid.  Rolled for damage (none) and skipped it's Perform Action Step.  During Huge ship movement, a nearby CR90 ran into the asteroid (not the HWK) and destroyed it.  During the combat phase, we discussed it and it seemed to us that since the HWK was no longer on an asteroid anymore it could attack.

 

So I concur with the above: while the ship is on the asteroid, it may not attack.  In our case, the ship was no longer on an asteroid and so it could.  He was out of range though.

[StephenEsven 632]

The article is not wrong. The reference card clearly states that tractoring someone onto an obstale causes an overlap. This causes the first damage roll. If you then overlap with the template when executing the next maneuver you are subject to a second overlap causing a second damage roll.

Edited January 21, 2016 by StephenEsven

[digitalbusker 2,248]

The article is not wrong. The reference card clearly states that tractoring someone onto an obstale causes an overlap. This causes the first damage roll. If you then overlap with the template when executing the next maneuver you are subject to a second overlap causing a second damage roll.

The reference card also clearly states that the compulsory movement is not a maneuver, and the rules only trigger consequences for obstacle overlaps that happen during a maneuver.

[Sephlar 260]

The article is not wrong. The reference card clearly states that tractoring someone onto an obstale causes an overlap. This causes the first damage roll. If you then overlap with the template when executing the next maneuver you are subject to a second overlap causing a second damage roll.

 

Stephen... we only ROLL for asteroid damage during the activation phase. NOT during the Combat Phase. Why? Because you roll for damage from and asteroid RIGHT after you skip the "perform action step." Page 14 - Obstacles:

 

"Asteroid: The ship must skip its “Perform Action” step this round. After skipping the “Perform Action” step, it rolls one attack die."

 

This game has an order to when things happen. When questions are posed to Frank, the first thing he does is quote the order of when things happen. UNTIL there is an FAQ saying otherwise, I'm not rolling for my ships that happen to be on a rock unless it is during the activation phase. Because THAT is when the rules regarding Obstacles say you roll for damage.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Sephlar

[Parravon 5,217]

You know, a lot of this could should have been clarified in the release article.

[Slugrage 5,011]

You know, a lot of this could should have been clarified in the release article.

Or to fully appease the nerdrage of the angry rules lawyers, they could just stop putting out the advance articles and let everyone sweat it out until the product actually drops.  Waaaay fewer questions. Waaaay less nerdrage.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

You know, a lot of this could should have been clarified in the release article.

Or to fully appease the nerdrage of the angry rules lawyers, they could just stop putting out the advance articles and let everyone sweat it out until the product actually drops.  Waaaay fewer questions. Waaaay less nerdrage.

 

So very true

[Krynn007 2,445]

It would make sense if they had to roll

Your basically throwing them into the rock and they have no control

However with that said tractor beam can be pretty potent

Last night I threwy buddies stressbot on a rock so he didn't get to shoot then died, then I did it to his awing twice two turns in a row, ending him and was going to do the same to his other awing when he called it.

Tractor beam seems pretty potent to me. At least on vessery.

Anyway we played it as he had to roll for dmg and couldn't shoot

As for the wording in the rules in which the OP underlined.

Until now there was no way to land of a rock without doing a maneuver I believe.

You cant decloak or barrel roll or boost on to a rock.

Daredevil counts as a maneuver so that's covered by the current rules

Tracgir beam is a first of a kind that let's the opposing Player decide where to move the ship and in this case he can barrel roll you into the asteroid even though the rules clearly state you cannot Barrel roll onto an asteroid.

So if the article is correct (we all know how that goes and I hope they learn their lesson after the kwing fiasco) then the effects from the tractor beam does not follow the current rules in the rulebook, and that also means that its very likely you'll be rolling for dmg

Edited January 22, 2016 by Krynn007

[StephenEsven 632]

Yes because we need to remember the 'cards overrule the rules reference' rule. In this case the tractor beam reference clearly states how it overrules standard rules.

It is not a maneuver.

It is not an action.

The boost or barrel role can be done onto an obstacle.

Hitting an obstacle does cause an overlap.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

They wanted Tractor Beams to be able to put you on a rock, so they added a line to the rule card saying you can do that.

They didn't want Tractor Beams to trigger "after performing a maneuver" effects, so they put a line on the rule card saying it's not a maneuver.

They wanted you to roll for damage immediately upon being tractored into a rock, so they... didn't mention that at all on the rule card?

One of these things is not like the others....

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Hitting an obstacle does cause an overlap.

Rules Reference, page 14:

When a ship executes a maneuver, if its base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle...

Just to be clear, the rules say nothing at all about what happens if you overlap an obstacle through some mechanism other than a maneuver.

You do suffer the effect of overlapping an asteroid in the Combat phase (i.e., you can't make attacks). But you don't suffer the usual effects of hitting an obstacle during the Activation phase.

[StephenEsven 632]

You keep quoting the rules and completely ignore that the tractor beam reference card tells you how to override those rules when tractoring someone onto a obstacle. The quote above tells you exactly what happens when you overlap an obstacle. It suffers an effect based on the obstacle type. This happens when you execute a maneuver, if you slam or daredevil and over lap. And now it also happens if you get tractors onto the obstacle.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

You keep quoting the rules and completely ignore that the tractor beam reference card tells you how to override those rules when tractoring someone onto a obstacle. The quote above tells you exactly what happens when you overlap an obstacle. It suffers an effect based on the obstacle type. This happens when you execute a maneuver, if you slam or daredevil and over lap. And now it also happens if you get tractors onto the obstacle.

The difference is that SLAM and Daredevil are both manoeuvres, whereas this is not.  The ability to put ships on rocks without using a manoeuvre is unprecedented, so it's not clear what the rules actually are, we can only guess at intent.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

You keep quoting the rules and completely ignore that the tractor beam reference card tells you how to override those rules when tractoring someone onto a obstacle. The quote above tells you exactly what happens when you overlap an obstacle. It suffers an effect based on the obstacle type. This happens when you execute a maneuver, if you slam or daredevil and over lap. And now it also happens if you get tractors onto the obstacle.

The difference is that SLAM and Daredevil are both manoeuvres, whereas this is not.  The ability to put ships on rocks without using a manoeuvre is unprecedented, so it's not clear what the rules actually are, we can only guess at intent.

But it is clear what the rules actually are: you suffer the effects of an obstacle only if you arrive there via a maneuver. It's a clear if-then statement, and using a Tractor Beam to place a ship on an obstacle during the Combat phase doesn't satisfy the "if".

I do completely agree with you on the subject of intent, though--we don't have any basis to guess, and FFG's usual policy is to avoid ruling until the material is actually released. They could support the current rules as written, they could rule against the current rules, or (least likely, but most intriguingly) they could change the obstacle rules so that it doesn't matter how you get there.

[Sephlar 260]

Until a card or FAQ tell me not to follow the rules and the steps in those rules, then I'm following the rules as they are. And the rules are clear, the roll for damage when overlapping an asteroid happens right after you skip the perform action step.

And I'm saying all this as someone who is currently using tractor beam on Vassal, and tonight in a store casual night. Tractor Beam is already powerful enough for what it is (a 1 point cannon). Most of the time that it's used, its more powerful than ion cannon (a 3 point cannon).

Tractor Beam is situational, but most 1 point upgrades are. The early reports are already in: Tractor Beam is extremely powerful. So why would I want to circumvent and make up additional rules and when damage is rolled for landing on an asteroid to make tractor beam even more powerful. Once you use tractor beam once and landed them on a rock once, and caused them to miss out on an attack once, the cannon has already recovered it's cost value of 1 pt. then when you factor in the most builds will make significant use out of the now lower agility of the targeted ship by hitting it with 2 or more attacks with lowered agility... Well let's just say that tractor beam COULD have been priced at 3 points and often STILL would be a bargain upgrade on the right squad.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Sephlar

[Kharnvor 432]

Doh!  Replied to StevenEsven without noticing you two had already done so!

 

What you say is correct, but I believe your conclusion that it rolls for damage is incorrect.  Rolling for damage happens "After skipping the Perform Action step."

Since there is no Perform Action step to skip in the Combat Phase, this effect does not trigger and you do not roll for damage when tractored onto an obstacle.  Likewise the ship wouldn't get stress from a Debris Cloud since there's no "Check Pilot Stress" step in the Combat Phase after which the stress would be assigned.

 

Despite what I said earlier, I'm now a bit iffy on the inability to attack - if you go by the first condition that you only suffer the effects of obstacles if you overlapped due to a maneuver, then you would ignore the entirety of the text in the obstacle types.  That text is where you're told a ship can't attack.  You can't really cherry pick which effects you suffer and which you don't, so by a literal reading of the obstacle rules, a ship tractored onto an asteroid suffers no effects that round.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Kharnvor

[Vulf 911]

It's still a kick in the teeth when they have to leave the asteroid by overlapping it on the next round.

 

I forgot where I saw an answer, but can you barrel roll or boost off of an asteroid you are overlapping if the maneuver template for barrel roll overlaps a little bit of it?

 

Obviously this barrel roll/boost would come before a maneuver, using advanced sensors or Squad leader or BB8 or something similar.